Habit of rolling in

[deina-kun]

I have a bad habit of rolling in while I play. It might be the weight of the flute or how I hold it. Are there any suggestions for breaking this habit?

[fluteguy18]

just persistance. I myself have a slight inclination to play with my keys angling ever so slightly backward from having a flute that would only produce a decent tone in that position. Now, that I have upgraded, I am trying to break a few bad habits while I am adjusting to a new flute. So, now I am getting very particular about making sure that my headjoint isnt rolled in slightly, and that my keys are level [not tilted back]. But, it is all a matter of persistance, and trying to break the habit. You might find it useful to purchase a Thumbport, which is basically a rubber attatchment that you can put on your flute to help you hold it with your right hand. It prevents rolling [ to an extent], puts your hand in a more ergonomic position, and helps rebalance the way you hold your flute. I myself use one, and it has helped me try and break the habit of having my keys tilted slightly backward.

It has also helped me release tension in my hands, thus I have less problems with my hands now [ and the fact that my new flute has an offset G key], and can practice much longer without fatigue.

[sinebar]

[quote="fluteguy18"]just persistance. I myself have a slight inclination to play with my keys angling ever so slightly backward from having a flute that would only produce a decent tone in that position.

What did you upgrade to? I have Yamaha 381 that I assume is of sufficient quality so it will produce a good tone in the correct posistion?

[flutepicc06]

just persistance. I myself have a slight inclination to play with my keys angling ever so slightly backward from having a flute that would only produce a decent tone in that position.

What did you upgrade to? I have Yamaha 381 that I assume is of sufficient quality so it will produce a good tone in the correct posistion?

There should be no issue with your flute producing a good sound as you progress.

I have a bit of a different idea from some flutists about positioning. Many have been taught that it's poor practice to have the keys angled backwards slightly, but it may very well be more ergonomic and less straining to play this way. The rods, being placed out from the body as they are, have the tendency to make the flute roll if you don't support it properly. The best way to counter that is to either play with the rods directly over the flute, or directly under it, as this will change where the center of gravity is and make rolling less likely. However, neither of these positions is particularly practical, so you have your option of raising the rods slightly, or lowering them slightly. As long as your hands are in a comfortable position, and it does not add additional stress to the situation, neither solution poses any real problems. Playing with the keys slightly forward (a Rockstro, or modified Rockstro position) works for some, and playing with them back slightly works for others, while some prefer the feel when their perfectly level. As long as you're happy with where the keys are, it doesn't really matter. It's like being told to align the embouchure hole with the keys....It's a decent starting place, but there's no harm (and very often a lot of benefit) to be had from experimenting with head position. I also believe that we must view the head and the body as two separate entities. Rather than saying "The headjoint must be in position X in relation to the body," find the angle at which the head produces it's best sound, easiest dynamic changes, fastest response, etc. regardless of where that may put the body. Then, maintaining the angle of the head, experiment with the body to get it into the most comfortable position for your hands, where your technique is at its best and rolling is least likely. Eventually you'll be able to tell by feel alone whether you have everything set up the way you want it. Remember....Every player is different and must find their own compromises to these problems, so being told exactly what position everything must be in does not make much sense.

You may also wish to consult a good flute teacher in your area, as it's very difficult to make valid suggestions without being able to observe your playing. Chances are pretty good that a few small changes to your hand position/how you're supporting the instrument can help get rid of the rolling.

[finallyflute-ing]

I've had a bad habit of rolling the flute back towards me on notes in the 2nd register, so thanks for answering this quesiton, guys!

[fluteguy18]

just persistance. I myself have a slight inclination to play with my keys angling ever so slightly backward from having a flute that would only produce a decent tone in that position.

What did you upgrade to? I have Yamaha 381 that I assume is of sufficient quality so it will produce a good tone in the correct posistion?

There should be no issue with your flute producing a good sound as you progress.

I have a bit of a different idea from some flutists about positioning. Many have been taught that it's poor practice to have the keys angled backwards slightly, but it may very well be more ergonomic and less straining to play this way. The rods, being placed out from the body as they are, have the tendency to make the flute roll if you don't support it properly. The best way to counter that is to either play with the rods directly over the flute, or directly under it, as this will change where the center of gravity is and make rolling less likely. However, neither of these positions is particularly practical, so you have your option of raising the rods slightly, or lowering them slightly. As long as your hands are in a comfortable position, and it does not add additional stress to the situation, neither solution poses any real problems. Playing with the keys slightly forward (a Rockstro, or modified Rockstro position) works for some, and playing with them back slightly works for others, while some prefer the feel when their perfectly level. As long as you're happy with where the keys are, it doesn't really matter. It's like being told to align the embouchure hole with the keys....It's a decent starting place, but there's no harm (and very often a lot of benefit) to be had from experimenting with head position. I also believe that we must view the head and the body as two separate entities. Rather than saying "The headjoint must be in position X in relation to the body," find the angle at which the head produces it's best sound, easiest dynamic changes, fastest response, etc. regardless of where that may put the body. Then, maintaining the angle of the head, experiment with the body to get it into the most comfortable position for your hands, where your technique is at its best and rolling is least likely. Eventually you'll be able to tell by feel alone whether you have everything set up the way you want it. Remember....Every player is different and must find their own compromises to these problems, so being told exactly what position everything must be in does not make much sense.

You may also wish to consult a good flute teacher in your area, as it's very difficult to make valid suggestions without being able to observe your playing. Chances are pretty good that a few small changes to your hand position/how you're supporting the instrument can help get rid of the rolling.

I agree. My current teacher [ I alternate teachers between the school year and the summer 'break'] is of the same opinion as you. My "Summer" teacher is of the opinion, that your keys should be level or angle ever so slightly forward. I personally feel more comfortable with the keys angled backward, but with my new flute, the cut of the headjoint is completely different than my old one. So, whereas the older flute played better angled slightly backward, my newer one plays better with the keys more level [if that makes any sense....]. So, I am trying to find the right balance right now between both perspectives on this aspect of playing. Both positions are comfortable, so I am trying not to 'tilt' the flute backward because it is now counterproductive to my tone whereas it used to be beneficial to tone production. So, for one teacher, I am just making the normal adjustments, and for the other I am "breaking a bad habit".

So, I know this sounds contradicting to what I said before, but to me, where it used to be fine to have the way I aligned the flute before, it is now a habit that I need to break because my new flute plays better if the keys are more level [ still with a certain degree of tilt, but not as much as before]. So, just to clarify, if the flute rolling backward is a problem, and is being counterproductive to your playing, then be persistant, and take flutepicc's advice about a possibly getting a teacher to help see if changing your hand position would benefit you. If rolling in isnt causing any problems, then dont worry about it. It is just how you play, and how you are comfortable playing.

As for your question about my upgrade, I upgraded to a handmade Miyazawa.

[flutepicc06]

I personally feel more comfortable with the keys angled backward, but with my new flute, the cut of the headjoint is completely different than my old one. So, whereas the older flute played better angled slightly backward, my newer one plays better with the keys more level [if that makes any sense....].

I'm not sure I understand. The cut of the head should not have any affect on where the keys should be pointed for the best sound, unless you are looking at the flute as one entity rather than two, as I mentioned in my last post. The position of the keys (in this dimension) doesn't impact sound, so I'm a bit confused...Would you mind clarifying?

[ick27]

The purpose of rolling the flute like we've been talking about is to find the best position for your wrists. After you find what position is comfortable for your wrists and hands, the head joint can be adjusted to whatever position you like.

Rolling forward (the keys pointing forward) too much causes your left wrist to bend back too much, while rolling back too much causes the right wrist to bend back uncomfortably. Also, if you roll back too much, you'll have to hold the flute up with the fingers of your right hand. With the keys pointed up or slightly forward, the flute can be held up just by the first joint of the left index finger and the right thumb, freeing the fingers.

Because of this, I have never seen a good flutist play with the keys rolled back.

It is good that you're thinking about these things. It takes a lot of experimenting to find a way of holding the flute that is comfortable and allows free finger movement.

[fluteguy18]

I personally feel more comfortable with the keys angled backward, but with my new flute, the cut of the headjoint is completely different than my old one. So, whereas the older flute played better angled slightly backward, my newer one plays better with the keys more level [if that makes any sense....].

I'm not sure I understand. The cut of the head should not have any affect on where the keys should be pointed for the best sound, unless you are looking at the flute as one entity rather than two, as I mentioned in my last post. The position of the keys (in this dimension) doesn't impact sound, so I'm a bit confused...Would you mind clarifying?

Actually.... you are very right. It didnt make any sense, and I myself dont understand it now that I really think about it.... I guess this week I wasnt actually putting the principle of the head being a different entity from the body in terms of alignment and comfort into practice. I guess what was happening, was when I put my flute together, I put it together the same way I used to put my old one together. So, when I played it, I was constantly rolling out to get a better tone. So, I guess this week was an expieriance where I wasnt listening to what I was saying. oops....

No wonder it was so odd trying to get used to this flute. I wasnt putting theory into practice. I just now repositioned the headjoint in my practice session [ actually put the theory into practice] and it worked way better.....

Thanks for pointing that out.

Do as I say, not as I have done recently