440 vs 442

[MissyHPhoenix]

Can anyone explain this to me? I thought that the flutes made today were all at 440, but just read that they are at 442 and the older ones were at 440 .... ? If that is so, why does my 27 year old Sankyo blend fine with the present-day age flutes I play with? Shouldn't there be a problem there? I'm confused.

Thanks!

[Zevang]

If you think about a violin player, for example, we know that one must use a finger to press the string in a certain position to produce a certain note. With the flute it's just the same, difference is that instead of pressing a string we choose between different keys to make the tube longer or shorter, lower or higher notes respectivelly (this is a simplistic idea though).
So, the way flutes are built define the tuning of the instrument. There is a relation between the position of the tone holes, so the flute is tuned to a chosen pattern, say 440, 442 or even 445, these the most modern I've heard of.
Well, but what does this mean exactly? The number itself stands for the frequency stablished for the lower A note of the flute. In a particular case it's 440 Hz (Hertz, the unit that stands for a number of vibrations per second).
You can imagine that a flute tuned in A 440 would sound a little bit lower in tune than another in 442. Well, phisically it's true, but the flutist is the person who can change this scenario. Although it's easier to tune with other instruments tuned to A 442 if your own instrument is tuned so, it's not impossible to tune if only your flute is 440. That's why you feel you play in tune, regardlees of your flute being 440. What really matters is not the construction of the instrument, but what your ears perceive as being "in tune" or not. However, it is easier to do that if the instruments involved are tuned to the same system (440, 442...).
It's funny to see that the old wooden flutes were sold with different headjoints that had different sizes so the flutist could match the tuning system adopted by a certain group. The flute makers simply didn't know that it was not sufficient to just alter the whole length of the flute to change the tuning of a flute. But regardless of that, flutists played in tune...

Hope it helps, and that my explanation was not very confusing

[MissyHPhoenix]

That does help! I really was confused about what the 440/442 meant, actually.

So if the more modern flutes are made to play at 442, that is why they are easier to play "in tune" than some of the older models, right? Is there a cut-off period in time, say a period of 10 years or so, where the modern 442 was implemented? Is there any way to generalize that, say before a certain date the older flutes are problematic to play in a group (intonation-wise, that is)? I'm just curious because I have read articles before that would state that such-and-such a flute was considered Vintage but could or should not be played with modern instruments, and I always wondered why that was. Does that make sense? I know I have read about the controversial Haynes flutes that were made in the "golden era" of the Haynes and how they are better than the ones that were made after ... do those earlier Haynes flutes run into the intonation problems? My Prima Sankyo is 27 years old, but I have no trouble with intonation in a group. Does that mean it is tuned to 442, or just that it is a great flute (which is is ..... ).

Thanks for answering. This is really interesting to me.

[Zevang]

You're welcome Missy.

About older Haynes flutes playing "better" than new ones there are two main considerations to be made, imho. First is the way flutes were made before, probably the majority of them handmade and the new ones, besides told so, but not really handmade, in the complete sense of the term. This alone make a huge difference, because we can imagine that a completely handmade flute is much more expensive than a "half" handmade because of the care needed to build it, and time consumed, so we expect a higher overall quality on them. Just as an example, the tone holes used to be always soldered in handmade flutes. Today they leave only the keywork to be made this way and still call these "handmade" instruments (although there are still completely handmade flutes, the more expensive of all...)
Well, this could be a reason for the declared "better" result with older flutes. But besides the changes in tuning and scales, still is the flutist that make the bigger difference in the enquation.
Let's say you lend your 27 year old Sankyo to a flutist and this person complain that he/she could not play with others because its tuning is old... This means that this person was uncapable of doing the job you do when playing with modern instruments and still tuning with them. This is the flutist factor, the most important of the equation, imho again.
When they say that a Vintage instrument should not be played with modern ones is more like a commercial advise than really saying the truth about something. I just don't believe somebody would not have a gorgeous instrument like the old Haynes, or even our beautiful Sankyos jut because there are "difficulties" to play this instrument to everyone. That's not true. I strongly believe that the greatest percentage of influence in the equation is in fact the flutist not the instrument, although some qualities in it can improve or make things easier, but not impossible to do
To be sure about the tuning system of your particular Sankyo flute, send the model and serial number to Japan and they will promptly anwer you with complete information about it, including the date of manufacturing! (I did it myself and got it...)
But I still think that your hard work is the reason for you playing in tune with others. It is a great flute for sure (because mine also is... , but I'd rather say that the combination you+yourflute is the greatest thing.

[cflutist]

I think you are confusing the pitch (e.g A=440 or A=442) with the "scale" of the flute.

For example, Brannen will make a flute to A=440, 442, 444, or 446. THis has to do with the length of the tube and the placement of the tone holes. They told me that 442 is most popular now and will play in tune 2Hz above or below that pitch. Our orchestra still tunes to A=440, so for me to play in tune, I normally pull the headjoint out about a quarter of an inch.

My vintage Haynes (1972) was made to A=440 and is more difficult to play in tune than my Brannen. To play this flute in tune with A=440, I normally pull out only 1/8". The Haynes tends to be flat in the lowest register, have a very sharp C# etc. Back then, this was pre-Deveau scale, so it was to Boehm's scale.

My Brannen is made using the Cooper scale, other modern scales are the Bennett scale. These newer scales tend to be more in tune with themselves.
A competent flutist can play either flute in tune with others.

[JButky]

My vintage Haynes (1972) was made to A=440 and is more difficult to play in tune than my Brannen.

That haynes and all pre deveau scaled haynes (@1980) are scaled lowered than 440. Haynes merely shortened their headjoints to make the "A" play at 440 corrupting the rest of the scale when you "tuned" {cough} to 440. One must remember that a flute is capable of being played most in tune when the headjoint draw is set according to the designed scale of the instrument. The more you deviate from that location the more you have to work to overcome intonation issues.

This is the reason why the old Haynes flutes have fallen out of favor given modern pitch. Most orchestras play at 442 or higher. Even if they start at 440 they usually end up at 442 before too long. An Old haynes with a scaling below 440 has significant displacement of the required headjoint length for it to be in tune with itself at that higher pitch. This amount of intonation gymnastics required would make even the best flute player frustrated and unhappy.

These newer scales tend to be more in tune with themselves.

So hopefully you can see that this is not exactly true. IF you play these flutes at the pitch they are designed to be played at, they are perfectly fine. This is easily tested by playing with an electronic keyboard where you can change the master tuning and set it to a lower pitch standard. When you set it to 437-438, these old flutes have NO pitch problems.

The problem comes in when we attempt a play a flute at a much higher pitch than it was scaled for by design.

Zevang mentioned the Japanese flutes. The great pitch creep started to affect flutemakers redesigning scales in the 1950's. Some like Powell developed their own scale, Haynes did not. (Hence the "golden age" of powells that are still commanding higher prices and desirability today). The Japanese were starting from scratch after WWII around this time so it was easy for them to start with a higher pitch design scaling. A 27 year old Sankyo SHOULD be at modern pitch since all the Japanese makers did not have to change to accommodate the higher pitch scaling. They started there from scratch.

The Haynes flutes had their scale copied from a louis lot flute from the turn of the century @A=438. They never modernized their scale until 1980 and just shortened the headjoints as people complained and then called them 440. (Luckily you can still draw them out to be in tune with themselves.) Their Commercial model closed hole flutes were copies of the Boehm and Mendler flute that was pitched at 440. These are great flutes with an acceptable modern pitch.

Unfortunately, the vast majority of flute players are not taught how to setup their headjoint draw to play in tune these days. As a result, even many great players force us to suffer from listening to scaling anomalies that could be rather easily corrected with extremely minor setup. (You may have guessed correctly that this is a huge per peeve of mine!)

[MissyHPhoenix]

Joe -- THAT explains it!! What is the correct set-up? I don't know that anybody has ever told me about that before .....

Zevang, I do agree with you about the Sankyos -- I absolutely LOVE my flute, but I tend to think it is mostly the flute rather than the player .... but I'm working on it!

I did wonder about the Haynes situation, since I was always hearing about how there was a period where they were not in favor in more. Never understood why. I had a friend in high school who played a Haynes (not sure what year it was) and she was great. I always envied her.

Thanks for all the info!

[Zevang]

I'm not confusing scales with pitch... I know exactly what those are.
Maybe it's the way I try to explain things that is confusing. Sorry for that, English is my second language and sometimes I really get confused.
Missy, I hope there is no misunderstanding about this intriguing subject because of me.

[MissyHPhoenix]

Z, no I am following what you mean. I think you are looking at it from an artist's point of view and Joe is talking from a technical point of view. I believe, my opinion only, that what is being pointed out is that there has to be a melding of the two in order to get the desired outcome; i.e., the flute may be the greatest instrument in the world, but if the musician can't play it in tune .... well. What I am also interpreting is that there are going to be instruments that are simply harder to play in tune because of the way they were made. Wish there was some big red sign that could be put on flutes that says "WILL PLAY IN TUNE WITH OTHER FLUTES" so that some people I know could get them and stop torturing my ears ....



Do you know what scale Sankyos are? Is "Boehm" a scale or a maker? I get all of the different terms mixed up. I hope one day I can visit one of the big flute centers and get to play all of the big name instruments. That would be enlightening!

[JButky]

Do you know what scale Sankyos are? Is "Boehm" a scale or a maker?

Sankyos are a modern scale. It's their own as are most now under the general class of "Modified Cooper Scale" flutes.

Cooper scale is what we know it as, but Albert Cooper did not design the scale. Boehm (19th century) gave us the flute key system most of us use today. He was a designer (and maker) and created the "Schema" which was a basic guide to calculate the placement of tone holes for any given pitch (at least to a degree). Louis Lot was the maker that really allowed the Boehm's design to take off since Lot was an incredible flute craftsman.

As pitch started to creep up, a trio of flutists, most likely frustrated by the tuning of the flutes trying to be played at higher pitch, enlisted the help of Elmer Cole to actually calculate a new scaling based on Boehm's schema. Prior to that, flutemaker's blindly moved tone holes at the insistence of some great players who were complaining. (to this day, the phenomenon of the flat low register resulted in the foot joint tone hole being moved up and on many flutes in the crossover phase, even today, those notes are still scaled sharper). Trevor Wye and William Bennett worked with Elmer to get the scale correct. Albert Cooper was making fine flutes and so they worked with him to get the design right and produce the flute that Mr Cole had designed. So the name "Cooper scale" came to be what it was called since Albert's flutes were the first ones made even though Elmer Cole did most of the calculations.

In the 50's that scale was brought here to America by Landell after he visited Cooper and he built a flute for WIBB. (Jon started at Powell so hopefully you can see the connection to Powell's scale)

Since then, there have been slight modifications by various manufacturers. They are all good but slightly different. So there is no getting around "playing" a flute in tune. But having it designed proportionally correct within its scale at a chosen pitch makes that job a lot easier if you use it and play it that way.

[JButky]

"WILL PLAY IN TUNE WITH OTHER FLUTES"

You still need that more for the flutists! Should be a T-Shirt!

[Zevang]

Wish there was some big red sign that could be put on flutes that says "WILL PLAY IN TUNE WITH OTHER FLUTES" so that some people I know could get them and stop torturing my ears ....

Good point Missy

And JB, thanks for clarifying!

cheers,

[MissyHPhoenix]

I'd love to have a t-shirt like that!!!

Thanks for all of the info, everybody. Nice to have it clarified finally!

[Phineas]

I have flutes that are both 440, and 442. What happened to the art of tuning to each other(or to a group)? I do not use a strobe tuner, or an electric tuner. I use my ears. If it sounds bad, it sound bad whether you are in tune or not. I think the scale is way more important than the resonant pitch of the instrument.

[MissyHPhoenix]

I agree. I use a tuner to make sure I am in tune with myself, but think it is much more important to make sure I play in tune with the other members of the group. I was just wondering how much the 440/442 thing added to the tuning mix. I mean .... when you have somebody who just CANNOT play in tune, maybe they could blame it on their flute ..... ?