Baffled by keys "bindings"

[flutego12]

If you find rust/corrosion or gummy oil, the solution should be fairly straightforward. Remove the rust or old oil, apply fresh oil and reassemble. Repeat the pendulum test. If each key swings freely, you are ready to reassemble the flute. ...

Hello PiedPiper
I think you've rightly guessed the problem.
When I continually "bathed" the hinges with drops of oil simultaneously moving the hinges hoping the oil will enter and do it's job, after a minute or so some rusts leaked out, I repeated this and blotted out as much rust as I could, till clear. Reassembled and tried again. This has allowed the E-key to play normally (E note). However D and F still problematic in that

D-key fully engages E-key when pressed.
F-key does not engage F#key enough when pressed (opposite problem)

I think the next steps has to be to do what you suggested from the outset - disassemble the RH stack... How do I do that?)
I think the oil is not reaching certain parts.
What is puzzling is how is it that the symptoms/ problems for D and F keys are the opposite rather than similar?

[pied_piper]

...D and F still problematic in that

D-key fully engages E-key when pressed.
F-key does not engage F#key enough when pressed (opposite problem)

I think the next steps has to be to do what you suggested from the outset - disassemble the RH stack... How do I do that?)
I think the oil is not reaching certain parts.
What is puzzling is how is it that the symptoms/ problems for D and F keys are the opposite rather than similar?

The D and E keys are supposed to operate independently so if the E key moves when pressing the D key, that would indicate the presence of binding due to rust or corrosion, etc. The D Key should just slide off the end of the hinge rod. Once off, you should be able to remove the rust/corrosion from the hinge rod. Also, moisten a pipe cleaner with alcohol and run it through the D key hinge to clean that too.

The F-F# issue is different because that key interaction is a regulation issue. There should be an adjustment screw on the F key. If the F# key is not fully closing, then the adjustment screw should be turned clockwise to cause the F# key to fully close when F key is pressed.

To disassemble the RH stack, you must remove the pins that go through the keys and hinge. These are tapered pins that are pressed into place. Often, they can be removed by pulling them with special pliers like these: http://www.jlsmithco.com/PLIERS/JLS-WHOLE-SPRING-PLIER Read the instructions there and look at the photo #6 below the main photo.

If the pliers won't remove the pins, then you'll need a pin punch (also called a knock pin remover) to loosen the pin. This page describes how it works: http://www.jlsmithco.com/FLUTE-TOOLS/KEY-PIN-PUNCH_2

After removing the pins and keys from the hinge rod, remove the rust/corrosion from the hinge rod. Apply fresh oil to the hinge rod and reassemble in the reverse order (check freedom of movement with the pendum test). It's a good idea to have some new pins available to replace those that tend to disappear, break, or bend. Press the pins back into the keys.

[JButky]

It's a good idea to have some new pins available to replace those that tend to disappear, break, or bend. Press the pins back into the keys.

Generally speaking, pins are not interchangeable. Keep track of what pin goes where and put them back exactly as you found them.

IF you loose a pin you will need to fit a new one to do it properly. That usually means reaming the taper for the new pin if you want to do it properly.

When we make a new pin for a mechanism old school, you make the reamer for the pin stock you are using. The key and hole are reamed at the same time to put the right taper in it to match the new pin.

Try not to loose the pins and keep track of them.

Regarding pins also. Pins are much easier to deal with on Pro flutes than on student flutes (generally speaking).. Some student flutes are, shall we say...stubborn, when it comes to pins

[pied_piper]

Generally speaking, pins are not interchangeable. Keep track of what pin goes where and put them back exactly as you found them.

IF you loose a pin you will need to fit a new one to do it properly. That usually means reaming the taper for the new pin if you want to do it properly.

When we make a new pin for a mechanism old school, you make the reamer for the pin stock you are using. The key and hole are reamed at the same time to put the right taper in it to match the new pin.

Try not to loose the pins and keep track of them.

Regarding pins also. Pins are much easier to deal with on Pro flutes than on student flutes (generally speaking).. Some student flutes are, shall we say...stubborn, when it comes to pins

Yep. I should have mentioned about keeping track of the pins.

It's been many years since I've lost one, but I have had some break. Some of the newer non-mainstream instruments have pins which are not properly tempered and break or bend easily. Also, my experience with pro vs. student flutes is similar to yours with the student ones tending to be more difficult.

I've had good luck using the JL Smith pins and reamers to replace pins when necessary, but that has only been on student flutes. I've never needed to replace a pin on a pro model.

[mirwa]

I never re-use pins, once there out, I taper ream and fit new pins

[flutego12]

@ Pied Piper - You're so so sooo spot on!
Again, I finally had sometime to sit down on Monday? Tue? and found the courage to manually (force) unfreeze the E key bind on both sides. The hinge was still tight, so I followed your advice and bathed the hinge cracks with oil - continually, blotting what rust leaked out and kept oiling until that cleared. It's amazing that with a little lent confidence from fluteland, everything works (so happy) - and the flute is playing nicely again. For insurance, I think I shall repeat process over several days to make sure the oil has worked all the way up and down the hinge properly - short of unpinning. I shall keep the flute for observation for a month and who knows, I might open it up for a full clean. Thanks for the JLS links. I like his products - high premiums but. Written twice to ferreestools but haven't heard back - they would be more cost effective for me. You and Joe guessed rightly, it is a (mainstream) y'haw student flute.

@ JoeButky & PP - Thanks! I shall remember that. These are the very hidden tips a greenhorn needs. Much appreciated.

@ mirwa - I'll need more instruments for that. You are very well equipped indeed. A good aspiration to have.

[flutego12]

Well, it could still be a bent rod, but ultimately alcohol (of any variety) acts as a solvent. So it seems to me it's probably a combination of dried oil and likely some corrosion built up in there. For future reference I don't recommend isopropyl alcohol simply because it contains water and it will encourage the formation of rust. I would use either denatured alcohol or if it is particularly gummy, valve oil often loosens and removes substances. You would then of course have to degrease with the denatured alcohol.

@fluteguy18
Hi! Thanks so much for the headsup. I didn't realize that before - (of course!) water corrodes. Do you have any suggestions of penetrating oil? I've been using the normal flute oil.

[fluteguy18]

Well, keep in mind that I'm still learning so the other techs here might have some other solutions, but what I use is Corrosion Cracker Penetrating Oil which is made by Ferree's Tools. It's bright orange in color and has a distinctive smell. You have to let it sit for at least 1-24 hours before resorting to other methods, but it can work wonders. It can be warmed slightly to increase its power, but too much and it turns into glue (which makes your job harder).

http://www.ferreestools.com/brasswindto ... tools.html

Product number J88

The only catch with this is that you actually have to unpin the mechanism and clean it out once the corrosion has broken up. It's rather aggressive and wouldn't be good if you left it on/in the mechanism (nor would it be a good idea to get it on your hands). If you don't have a pair of the pliers PP recommended or the finances to acquire the pin punch by JL Smith, you could also simply take a small brass rod, cut it to 3-4" in length and file it down to a very fine point on a bench motor, lathe, or maybe even a drill press, then file the nose just barely flat. Then support the keywork upside down on a block of soft pine or balsa wood and knock the pins out of the mechanism that way. This method requires more dexterity and forces the pin into the wood, but it works just fine as long as you're careful not to mar the surface or bend the keywork. If you can't file down a brass rod, an awl made of steel might work if you remove the handle.

While the mechanism is apart it would be a good idea to clean the inside of the tube really well with Cor. Oil, then flush with Den. Alcohol. I would also polish the steel with something like crocus cloth or a heavy denim and denatured alcohol. This will help remove the corrosion. Make sure though that you clean out the hole the pin goes through with a very fine needle or maybe even with a piece of dental floss.

[pied_piper]

There are many penetrating oils. Some others: PB Blaster, Kroil, Liquid Wrench

[fluteguy18]

Good to know!

[mirwa]

I dont like to be disparaging, but realistically the only real repair is to pull it apart find the problem and re-assemble.

Everything your doing is really just a patch up.

I highly suspect you have a bent inner rod, so no matter how much flushing you do, it will always provide unwanted resistance.

Instrument repair is not cheap, for simple things yes, you do not need much, but the moment you actually have to carry out any form of mechanical repair it goes up exponentially.

I shudder at the thought of how much money I have paid out for tools and equipment. Our trade is probably one of the most demanding of specialised equipment.

Steve

[flutego12]

@All

Noted with thanks.
I sure would like to know how to get ferreestools to respond.

[flutego12]

Well, keep in mind that I'm still learning so the other techs here might have some other solutions, but what I use is Corrosion Cracker Penetrating Oil which is made by Ferree's Tools. It's bright orange in color and has a distinctive smell. You have to let it sit for at least 1-24 hours before resorting to other methods, but it can work wonders. It can be warmed slightly to increase its power, but too much and it turns into glue (which makes your job harder).

http://www.ferreestools.com/brasswindto ... tools.html

Product number J88

The only catch with this is that you actually have to unpin the mechanism and clean it out once the corrosion has broken up. It's rather aggressive and wouldn't be good if you left it on/in the mechanism (nor would it be a good idea to get it on your hands). If you don't have a pair of the pliers PP recommended or the finances to acquire the pin punch by JL Smith, you could also simply take a small brass rod, cut it to 3-4" in length and file it down to a very fine point on a bench motor, lathe, or maybe even a drill press, then file the nose just barely flat. Then support the keywork upside down on a block of soft pine or balsa wood and knock the pins out of the mechanism that way. This method requires more dexterity and forces the pin into the wood, but it works just fine as long as you're careful not to mar the surface or bend the keywork. If you can't file down a brass rod, an awl made of steel might work if you remove the handle.

While the mechanism is apart it would be a good idea to clean the inside of the tube really well with Cor. Oil, then flush with Den. Alcohol. I would also polish the steel with something like crocus cloth or a heavy denim and denatured alcohol. This will help remove the corrosion. Make sure though that you clean out the hole the pin goes through with a very fine needle or maybe even with a piece of dental floss.

Thanks, champ. Will give that a try. But Jeff just might get lucky.

[pied_piper]

I sure would like to know how to get ferreestools to respond.

I sent an email to Ferrees to see if they respond to me. I'll let you know if I get a response.

[JButky]

@All

Noted with thanks.
I sure would like to know how to get ferreestools to respond.

Just call..

800-253-2261