Repadding of Yamaha 200, 300 series flute

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flutego12
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Repadding of Yamaha 200, 300 series flute

Post by flutego12 » Mon Feb 18, 2013 7:21 am

Would somebody like to share their repadding experiences of Yamaha student and intermediate flutes?
What pads you've used/ preferred to use/ should have used? original vs generics and where sourced.

I see a lot of brands around floating about and am wondering about the merits of each. :shock: Is there such a thing as yamaha original pads and if so how an they be reliably purchased? Is that even necessary? I see Medimedic, JLS, etc etc. Would really appreciate a heads up here on a reliable brand and what I can expect between brands.

How do the different grades of pads stack up? Cost/benefit/longevity/ level of skill required to install.
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pied_piper
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Re: Repadding of Yamaha 200, 300 series flute

Post by pied_piper » Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:46 am

Good sources of pads for amateur repair techs include MusicMedic, JLS, and Ferrees Tools. There are other suppliers, but some only sell to businesses.

In reality,there are only a small number of pad manufacturers and most flute makers simply buy pads from one of them. There are two basic types of standard bladder skin pads using either woven felt or pressed felt. For a novice replacing pads in a student-level flute, I would suggest using double bladder skin pads with woven felt. Woven felt is softer than pressed felt and will take an impression on the tone hole. Pressed felt is harder and requires more skill from the tech to adjust. Most student-level flutes are equipped with woven felt pads.

For your purposes, stay away from the high-end pads like the Schmidt Gold pads because they are much more expensive and require installation by an experienced tech with a very high skill level.

I would suggest getting a copy of the book "Servicing the Flute" by J.L. Smith. That is an excellent introduction to repadding and adjustments. http://www.jlsmithco.com/BOOKS/SERVICIN ... -J-L-SMITH

There are two critical dimensions when buying pads: thickness and diameter. These vary by brand and model. Most student-level flutes use a slightly thicker pad (2.7 or 2.9 mm). The best way to choose the correct thickness and diameter is to measure an existing pad with digital calipers. Pads of a given thickness may vary a bit from pad to pad, so it may be best to buy the 2.7 mm thickness. You will have to add shims to set the correct pad exposure (the amount of pad that sticks out beyond the key cup). If the pad is a little thin (hits in front before the back), you can add more shims. If the pad is too thick, you may not be able to get the correct exposure and that means the pad will hit in the back and not cover in front. The Smith book explains all of this very well and is easy to understand - he includes lots of photos along with the descriptions.
"Never give a flute player a screwdriver."
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JButky
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Re: Repadding of Yamaha 200, 300 series flute

Post by JButky » Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:11 pm

Pisoni in Italy is the largest pad supplier in the world and make pads as original equipment for many brands.

You can buy direct here:

http://www.musiccenter.it/marche-mute.a ... ttoCat=449

DFL40's are the most common. Most other suppliers sell these same pads under different names.
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mirwa
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Re: Repadding of Yamaha 200, 300 series flute

Post by mirwa » Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:15 pm

I mean no disrespect, but don't try to repad a flute by yourself.

It is difficult for some repairers to do it, most I see don't get it right either, and I've seen plenty of ""professionally"" repadded instruments.

If you are determined, then your best chance of success is to own a working flute and change out just one pad. Treat it as a learning lesson.

Those who are good at flute work find setting and fitting flute pads easy, but we probably have done in the thousands of instruments to be able to get to this point.

I use two main thickness pads 2.5 / 2.7

I also carry 2.1 and 2.9 and various raw bladder skins / cup dies to make my own as required

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Re: Repadding of Yamaha 200, 300 series flute

Post by ghostNote » Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:54 pm

Has anybody ever tried making pads from cork?

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Re: Repadding of Yamaha 200, 300 series flute

Post by JButky » Mon Feb 18, 2013 7:58 pm

ghostNote wrote:Has anybody ever tried making pads from cork?
Often for piccolo, But not for flute :wink:
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flutego12
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Re: Repadding of Yamaha 200, 300 series flute

Post by flutego12 » Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:07 pm

pied_piper wrote:Good sources of pads for amateur repair techs include MusicMedic, JLS, and Ferrees Tools. Good to know, I must go check out FerreesTools There are other suppliers, but some only sell to businesses.

In reality,there are only a small number of pad manufacturers and most flute makers simply buy pads from one of them. There are two basic types of standard bladder skin pads using either woven felt or pressed felt. For a novice replacing pads in a student-level flute, I would suggest using double bladder skin pads with woven felt. Woven felt is softer than pressed felt and will take an impression on the tone hole. Pressed felt is harder and requires more skill from the tech to adjust. Most student-level flutes are equipped with woven felt pads. That's so helpful to know, thanks Pied Piper. No wonder some flutes have circular indents on the pads more pronouncedly than others, esp student ones.

For your purposes, stay away from the high-end pads like the Schmidt Gold pads because they are much more expensive and require installation by an experienced tech with a very high skill level. Not touching these!...definitely leaving these and Straubinger pads to the pros ...I wouldn't DARE touch a professional flute - not for a long while yet. :P... if ever.

I would suggest getting a copy of the book "Servicing the Flute" by J.L. Smith. That is an excellent introduction to repadding and adjustments. http://www.jlsmithco.com/BOOKS/SERVICIN ... -J-L-SMITH Have you used their Valentino Kit, this comes with the kit. Good starter.

There are two critical dimensions when buying pads: thickness and diameter. These vary by brand and model. Most student-level flutes use a slightly thicker pad (2.7 or 2.9 mm). The best way to choose the correct thickness and diameter is to measure an existing pad with digital calipers. I've seen those, the nephew's got one for his bike Pads of a given thickness may vary a bit from pad to pad, so it may be best to buy the 2.7 mm thickness. You will have to add shims to set the correct pad exposure (the amount of pad that sticks out beyond the key cup). If the pad is a little thin (hits in front before the back), you can add more shims. If the pad is too thick, you may not be able to get the correct exposure and that means the pad will hit in the back and not cover in front. Sounds really tricky. Thanks for these insights, PiedPiper. The Smith book explains all of this very well and is easy to understand - he includes lots of photos along with the descriptions.
I am hoping to just start off with COA. And I'm not even there yet. I am taking a look at an old flute (TO BUY) tomorrow, it's not cheap enough to really tinker with, so I won't be too adventurous with it (why fix it if it aint broke) You could say I'm a newbie hobbyist who loves flutes!
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Re: Repadding of Yamaha 200, 300 series flute

Post by flutego12 » Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:16 pm

JButky wrote:Pisoni in Italy is the largest pad supplier in the world and make pads as original equipment for many brands.

You can buy direct here:

http://www.musiccenter.it/marche-mute.a ... ttoCat=449

DFL40's are the most common. Most other suppliers sell these same pads under different names.
Thanks J Butky, they look like quality pads but rather pricey, I wonder if Pisoni have them made overseas and rebranded or locally?. If flute pads come from just a few manufacturers, we may as well get OEM for better value...? Would love to be a patron of the arts but currently have to be careful with the spending.
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Re: Repadding of Yamaha 200, 300 series flute

Post by pied_piper » Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:14 pm

flutego12 wrote:... RE Smith book - Have you used their Valentino Kit, this comes with the kit. Good starter.
I have not used it because I bought most of my repair tools long before these kits existed. However, based upon the photo, the Valentino Flute kit appears to be reasonable for a starter kit. It provides many of the essential tools and supplies to get started with flute repair. Unfortunately, they don't seem to provide a comprehensive list of what's in the kit. Here's what I can see:
Flute-sized screwdriver(s)
Spring hook
Open hole grommet tool
Feeler holder and feeler material
Screw board (to keep screws and steels organized during disassembly)
Key clamp (only one is shown)
Sharpie marker for marking pad orientation when installing shims
Mini/economy Butane torch for installing trill pads with hot melt glue
Head cork stick
Rope Leak Light (IMO nearly useless for finding small leaks on a flute)
Pad assortment (may or may not include the sizes and thicknesses that you need)
Pad shims?
Head cork
Sheet cork
Round cork for trill keys
Sheet felt?
Hot melt glue for trill pads
Liquid shellac?
Oil?
Smith book
Carry case

There are a few other items I can't easily identify from the photo. I would suggest that you contact JLS and ask for a complete list of the contents. Then you can better gauge if it will meet your needs and budget.
"Never give a flute player a screwdriver."
--anonymous--

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flutego12
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Re: Repadding of Yamaha 200, 300 series flute

Post by flutego12 » Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:15 pm

mirwa wrote:I mean no disrespect, but don't try to repad a flute by yourself.

It is difficult for some repairers to do it, most I see don't get it right either, and I've seen plenty of ""professionally"" repadded instruments. horrors...the audacity! :shock: I would only do it on my own flute if practising or at least attempt then get it QA'd by a qualified tech. Great believer of that.

If you are determined, then your best chance of success is to own a working flute and change out just one pad.that is precisely my intention. Treat it as a learning lesson.

Those who are good at flute work find setting and fitting flute pads easy, but we probably have done in the thousands of instruments to be able to get to this point. :shock: respect

I use two main thickness pads 2.5 / 2.7

I also carry 2.1 and 2.9 and various raw bladder skins / cup dies to make my own as required
Do you run a flute or repair outlet, mirwa? I am thinking of trying the Valentino kit but need to find a cheap flute first. Am hoping also my friend's son will upgrade soon but he loves his trusty old 211 despite it's rather sorry demeanor :P admittedly it sounds really good dents and all - quite a few big ones at that! so I don't really dare touch it in case the intonation changes! And - he is first flutist at his school... well... the only flutist
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Re: Repadding of Yamaha 200, 300 series flute

Post by flutego12 » Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:25 pm

pied_piper wrote:
flutego12 wrote:... RE Smith book - Have you used their Valentino Kit, this comes with the kit. Good starter.
I have not used it because I bought most of my repair tools long before these kits existed. However, based upon the photo, the Valentino Flute kit appears to be reasonable for a starter kit. It provides many of the essential tools and supplies to get started with flute repair. Unfortunately, they don't seem to provide a comprehensive list of what's in the kit. Here's what I can see:
Flute-sized screwdriver(s)
Spring hook
Open hole grommet tool
Feeler holder and feeler material
Screw board (to keep screws and steels organized during disassembly)
Key clamp (only one is shown)
Sharpie marker for marking pad orientation when installing shims
Mini/economy Butane torch for installing trill pads with hot melt glue
Head cork stick
Rope Leak Light (IMO nearly useless for finding small leaks on a flute)
Pad assortment (may or may not include the sizes and thicknesses that you need)
Pad shims?
Head cork
Sheet cork
Round cork for trill keys
Sheet felt?
Hot melt glue for trill pads
Liquid shellac?
Oil?
Smith book
Carry case

There are a few other items I can't easily identify from the photo. I would suggest that you contact JLS and ask for a complete list of the contents. Then you can better gauge if it will meet your needs and budget.
Gee thanks, Pied Piper. That's a long list. :) I guess you will have the heavy duty last a lifetime type tools. These are probably consummables quality for transients or and the hopefully not so transient amateurs. =D. Sounds expensive, let me go check the price.
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flutego12
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Re: Repadding of Yamaha 200, 300 series flute

Post by flutego12 » Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:55 pm

pied_piper wrote:
flutego12 wrote:... RE Smith book - Have you used their Valentino Kit, this comes with the kit. Good starter.
I have not used it because I bought most of my repair tools long before these kits existed. However, based upon the photo, the Valentino Flute kit appears to be reasonable for a starter kit. It provides many of the essential tools and supplies to get started with flute repair. Unfortunately, they don't seem to provide a comprehensive list of what's in the kit. Here's what I can see:
Flute-sized screwdriver(s)
Spring hook
Open hole grommet tool
Feeler holder and feeler material
Screw board (to keep screws and steels organized during disassembly)
Key clamp (only one is shown)
Sharpie marker for marking pad orientation when installing shims
Mini/economy Butane torch for installing trill pads with hot melt glue
Head cork stick
Rope Leak Light (IMO nearly useless for finding small leaks on a flute)
Pad assortment (may or may not include the sizes and thicknesses that you need)
Pad shims?
Head cork
Sheet cork
Round cork for trill keys
Sheet felt?
Hot melt glue for trill pads
Liquid shellac?
Oil?
Smith book
Carry case

There are a few other items I can't easily identify from the photo. I would suggest that you contact JLS and ask for a complete list of the contents. Then you can better gauge if it will meet your needs and budget.
omg! it's a substantial investment!
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Re: Repadding of Yamaha 200, 300 series flute

Post by JButky » Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:03 am

flutego12 wrote:
JButky wrote:Pisoni in Italy is the largest pad supplier in the world and make pads as original equipment for many brands.

You can buy direct here:

http://www.musiccenter.it/marche-mute.a ... ttoCat=449

DFL40's are the most common. Most other suppliers sell these same pads under different names.
Thanks J Butky, they look like quality pads but rather pricey, I wonder if Pisoni have them made overseas and rebranded or locally?. If flute pads come from just a few manufacturers, we may as well get OEM for better value...? Would love to be a patron of the arts but currently have to be careful with the spending.
Pisoni is the OEM manufacturer. When you buy most good quality pads from local suppliers, the vast majority of them are made by Pisoni. As do we, (manufacturers) buy our pads from pisoni as well. And as far as quality is concerned.for felt pads, Pisoni IS the best... It's why we all use those pads..
Joe B

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Re: Repadding of Yamaha 200, 300 series flute

Post by pied_piper » Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:28 am

mirwa wrote:I mean no disrespect, but don't try to repad a flute by yourself.

It is difficult for some repairers to do it, most I see don't get it right either, and I've seen plenty of ""professionally"" repadded instruments.
That's precisely why I explain how it's done and don't discourage others from trying it. The whole process of trying it themselves makes them appreciate the effort we have to put into repadding a flute. :lol:

I just love it when someone gets halfway through the process and then brings me a shoebox with their disassembled flute and asks "Can you help me put my flute back together and make it work again?" Hopefully, they haven't lost any parts in the process... :mrgreen:
"Never give a flute player a screwdriver."
--anonymous--

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Re: Repadding of Yamaha 200, 300 series flute

Post by flutego12 » Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:59 pm

pied_piper wrote:
mirwa wrote:I mean no disrespect, but don't try to repad a flute by yourself.

It is difficult for some repairers to do it, most I see don't get it right either, and I've seen plenty of ""professionally"" repadded instruments.
That's precisely why I explain how it's done and don't discourage others from trying it. The whole process of trying it themselves makes them appreciate the effort we have to put into repadding a flute. :lol:

I just love it when someone gets halfway through the process and then brings me a shoebox with their disassembled flute and asks "Can you help me put my flute back together and make it work again?" Hopefully, they haven't lost any parts in the process... :mrgreen:
:mrgreen: well ... thank you for not being dismissive and your wise cautionings. I'm very aware and appreciative of the layers of complexities and years of skill training and experience that goes into this craft. Ignorance simplifies :wink: But reality bites in all the hidden places. But nothing ventured nothing gained. Admittedly this cld be premature. I hope I don't fall into your shoebox category. :P The idea is to get a throwaway that does NOT play and bring it back to life to understand the flute better. There just isn't many around.
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