Different sound through different pads ?

Flute History and Instrument Purchase

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JButky
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Re: Different sound through different pads ?

Post by JButky » Tue Oct 26, 2010 3:21 pm

wkzh wrote:I managed to fish out a paper by Coltman... apparently Schmidt pads DO change your tone. It makes you brighter, essentially: reflects higher frequencies better, doesn't do much for lower frequencies. That, actually, seems to be a pretty predictable result, but when it comes down to experimentation... heheh, most of us don't have the patience and expertise.
The Coltman Paper concludes exactly the opposite and is concerned with acoustic losses which end up being statistically insignificant. There is no difference in flute tone due to the pads.

That Paper is here:
https://ccrma.stanford.edu/marl/Coltman ... n-1.41.pdf

and Concludes:
"As a general conclusion, most types of pads now in use have, when properly installed, acoustic losses that will not contribute detectable changes in power or tone quality of the instrument"
There is another effect which is well known and favored positively which involves the support of a pad's backing. All types of pads generally benefit from this type of installation procedure or having keycups supporting this design.

In general, Schmidt VS Straubinger...Schmidt is a vast improvement over the Straubinger design in terms of solving the tearing problem with two unique innovations (one of the pad membrane itself and the other in the retainer cup design. (Both use the same ultrasuede as a cushion). These form the basis of Jim's patent.

The upshot of all this is that it really matters little WHAT TYPE of pad you have in there. What is more important is HOW was it installed...Tone will not be affected.
Joe B

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cflutist
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Re: Different sound through different pads ?

Post by cflutist » Tue Oct 26, 2010 6:33 pm

So how does a layman know if pads are installed properly?

If a tech is on the Schmidt and Straubinger "list", am I to assume that I can trust my flute with them? (after my 1 year warranty runs out with Brannen). I certainly don't trust my local tech to work on my Haynes nor my Brannen.

All I know right now is that I don't hear the "noise" that others are talking about from Straubinger pads. How long are these pads supposed to last with proper care?
Should mention that I have a light touch with my keys and I have been trying really hard not to touch the keys when I put the flute together.

etc-etc
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Re: Different sound through different pads ?

Post by etc-etc » Tue Oct 26, 2010 8:56 pm

Leave it to a pro repairer.
Last edited by etc-etc on Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

wkzh
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Re: Different sound through different pads ?

Post by wkzh » Wed Oct 27, 2010 5:29 am

JButky wrote:The Coltman Paper concludes exactly the opposite and is concerned with acoustic losses which end up being statistically insignificant. There is no difference in flute tone due to the pads.
Ah yes, I was absolutely wondering whether it was significant or not. So I guess they AREN'T significant at all. I read that paper really really long ago and totally forgot what it was about, I just remembered there's a difference somewhere.

I was beginning to worry that I have commited a huge sin by saying:
In short, if you like a dark tone... not advisable get Schmidt pads. It's a matter of preference.
because I actually knew that there wouldn't be much of a difference (if any). But I was about to go to bed so, yeah, didn't have the energy to haul myself onto the keyboard to post a reply. Sorry there! :(

cflutist: if you want a darker tone, I suggest working on your embouchure flexibility instead. As mentioned, the change in timbre due to pads is insignificant. HOWEVER, the change in timbre due to embouchure can be very very significant. Something about different efficiencies in sound radiation, not too versed with that part so don't ask for details. Simplistically, a darker tone requires a "frown" and a brighter tone a "smile." Perhaps you might want to start a new thread on that, otherwise fish out the old thread.
JButky wrote:The upshot of all this is that it really matters little WHAT TYPE of pad you have in there. What is more important is HOW was it installed...Tone will not be affected.
When some keep claiming that their pads "eliminate microscopic leaks" or something to that extent, I actually think that truly "microscopic leaks" do not affect the instrument at all. Rather, a macroscopic leak of microscopic dimensions would adversely affect the instrument, i.e. wide but flat. In other words, it's not how non-porous your pad is, but rather if the pad is well seated and is sufficiently flat. And that's exactly what the recent innovations have made easier. Quality workmanship can achieve nearly the same thing but, hey, why not get it consistently, with less frustration and with a longer lifespan?
The flute family: probing the lower limit of human hearing and the upper limit of human tolerance.

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JButky
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Re: Different sound through different pads ?

Post by JButky » Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:37 am

cflutist wrote:So how does a layman know if pads are installed properly?
A lot of times you can't. Many times I have to take a pad out to see what the last tech did..
If a tech is on the Schmidt and Straubinger "list", am I to assume that I can trust my flute with them? (after my 1 year warranty runs out with Brannen). I certainly don't trust my local tech to work on my Haynes nor my Brannen.
"Supposedly" yes. Straubinger certified simply means they've taken David's course. Schmidt has a listing of people who install his pads. "Trust" is the operative word. If you are satisfied with your tech , then that's all that really matters..
All I know right now is that I don't hear the "noise" that others are talking about from Straubinger pads. How long are these pads supposed to last with proper care?
Should mention that I have a light touch with my keys and I have been trying really hard not to touch the keys when I put the flute together.
Like I said before, different people have different responses. They can last 6 months or they can last years. I've had people with horrible straub issues after 6 months with a new flute and others who have had them with little maintenance for years. It comes down to a combination of two very important factors. The first is how the installation was done, and second the player's playing and handling habits. No two people interface with a flute in the same manner. (Coltman also alludes to these factors in his conclusion in that article also). How these two main factors interact will determine if you like straubingers or not.
Joe B

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jmdewey60
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Re: Different sound through different pads ?

Post by jmdewey60 » Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:04 am

edit: Post removed by user, to put in a thread where it will be on topic.
Last edited by jmdewey60 on Mon Nov 15, 2010 9:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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flutego12
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Re: Different sound through different pads ?

Post by flutego12 » Tue Aug 06, 2013 8:55 am

Love this thread.
I may have doubled up recently not realizing this thread is already in existence.

So far I've got my pads from
Music Medic & JL Smith - both have backing on the pad that says "precision usa"
Instrument Clinic's issues says - Instrument Clinic on the backing

I've yet to try Yamaha's as they are extremely expensive $56-80 per set closed hole student flute pads. Curious what the difference is between these and the above.

I've heard good things about Pisoni but havent a clue where to purchase.

I've been through quite a few student yamaha's and love the set up in them that gives great vibratory fingertip feedback. Whether or not this is superfluous or even necessary but sure resonates well with me!
The whole thing feels alive. Hope the new pads are the same.

Your experience & thoughts welcome.
flutist with a screwdriver

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flutego12
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Re:

Post by flutego12 » Tue Aug 06, 2013 9:03 am

wkzh wrote:I was told that what pad you should use also depends on your climate. Here, in sunny, tropical, damp and moist Singapore, the technician told me that JS Gold pads weren't a good choice because they kinda got "wet".
Hello wkzh!
I read with great interest your comment above and was wondering what type of pads your techie recommended for flutes in the tropics?
flutist with a screwdriver

wkzh
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Re: Different sound through different pads ?

Post by wkzh » Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:17 am

flutego12 wrote:I read with great interest your comment above and was wondering what type of pads your techie recommended for flutes in the tropics?
He didn't specifically mention any, just cautioned that JS Gold pads were less satisfactory with this humidity.
The flute family: probing the lower limit of human hearing and the upper limit of human tolerance.

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