will a muramatsu flute be good for me ?

Flute History and Instrument Purchase

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flutepicc06
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Post by flutepicc06 » Wed Sep 19, 2007 6:56 pm

john101 wrote:Plus even though you kicked out $3500 for a closed hole Muramatsu EX, your going to constantly hear every teacher and professor continue to suggest you upgrade to an open hole flute. Why would you want to deal with that?

John
I have to disagree here. Only the less enlightened teachers would ever consider a Plateau Mura as inferior to a similar flute with open holes. If they're so poorly informed, odds are you don't want to be working with them anyway. Not to mention that any reasonably qualified teacher should recognize that a Muramatsu (closed hole or not) is a very good intermediate/pro flute, and there is no reason for them to suggest further upgrades purely for an openhole flute. If they feel that the student has grown out of their current model (say they're playing an EX and are beyond what it can do, for example), then it would not be unusual for them to suggest an upgrade, but only a pretty poor teacher would suggest a change in flutes just to get their pupil playing on an openhole model if the Plateau model they're playing still suits them. I'm not advocating that you special order a Plateau version of whatever you choose, just that you should keep your options open. John, please be careful what you are putting into people's heads with your posts (even inadvertently)....Even small things like suggesting a student will be pestered down the line for not buying a particular type of flute can have a big impact on their final decision. As I mentioned above, it's best to keep all your options open, play as many flutes within your price range as you can, and then go with the one that suits you best.

In any case, it can be pretty difficult to sell a flute at this level regardless of what options it has. Open hole flutes can sit in consignment for months or years without being purchased (take some of the instruments even at Fluteworld, for example), while you may find a buyer locally for a closed hole instrument (jazzers love mid-level plateau flutes), or vice versa. If worse comes to worst, should you purchase a closed hole model, you can almost certainly sell it in the European market, as the standard configuration there is a Plateau/C foot. I think it's poor policy to buy a flute based on the future, as I've mentioned before. You might wish to upgrade later, or you might decide the Mura (or whatever you select) suits you fine and stick with it for the rest of your life. There's also the possibility the you'll decide to stop playing, or any number of contingencies. You need to buy the flute that suits you best now without regard to what future teachers or potential buyers might think of it, or what you MIGHT choose to do down the line. Keep playing flutes, and when you find the right flute, don't worry too much about the options. It's far more important to have a flute that suits you well in a general sense (i.e. one that allows you to do everything you want from a musical standpoint) than to have open holes, or a split E, or a B foot, etc. etc.

Take into consideration all of the handmade flutes will start at $3000
This also is not necessarily accurate. Whether or not you're buying used, what company is making/made the flute, what area you're buying from, condition, and how much hand work is actually involved will all have a big impact on price. You can get partially handmade flutes for about $1500. Or you can get a fully handmade instrument beginning in the 4-5K price range, but the definition of a handmade flute (or an intermediate, introductory pro, etc.) varies too much from person to person and maker to maker for a generalization about price to even be realistic (much less accurate).
Last edited by flutepicc06 on Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:38 am, edited 3 times in total.

fluteguy18
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Post by fluteguy18 » Thu Sep 20, 2007 6:30 am

Even in the 4-5k price range, you can [depending on the construction materials and the specific company], find rather nice handmade flutes. My Miya cost roughly 4.5k and because I liked the nickel silver more than the sterling silver I could afford every option I wanted, upgrade the headjoint and had some $$ to spare.

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flutepicc06
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Post by flutepicc06 » Thu Sep 20, 2007 3:20 pm

fluteguy18 wrote:Even in the 4-5k price range, you can [depending on the construction materials and the specific company], find rather nice handmade flutes.
I believe I mentioned that in my last post, but it's good to know someone agrees with me! ;-)

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Phineas
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Post by Phineas » Thu Sep 20, 2007 5:03 pm

Plus even though you kicked out $3500 for a closed hole Muramatsu EX, your going to constantly hear every teacher and professor continue to suggest you upgrade to an open hole flute. Why would you want to deal with that?

John
BULL! I use to belive that too, till I actually saw and played on a $12000USD closedhole flute. I have a Japanese Miyazawa Legacy 1E, and everytime I show up at a flute event, the pro players, and the teachers drool over it. Most of what you hear is just a lack of awareness that handmade pro-level flutes exist. I will bet if I sold it, I could get almost what I paid for it.

How did that Rap tune go...."DONT BELIEVE THE HYPE!"

Another thing to consider is just because a flute has open holes does not make it a stepup/pro instrument. For example, a Yamaha YFL281 is an open hole, but there is no way you could convince me it is better than a Yamaha YFL514 a closed hole flute.

Phineas

john101
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Post by john101 » Thu Sep 20, 2007 6:27 pm

Sorry guys, you have your opinion I have mine. I simply do not see a downside to buying an open hole flute.

John

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Phineas
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Post by Phineas » Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:14 pm

John

The statement you made was not true. There is really nothing wrong with buying an openhole flute. It is wrong for instructors or anyone else to put down someone if they prefer not to buy an openhole flute. In the end it really should not matter. If a person has the money, even if they suck, that is all that matters. I own and play both types, so there :P

If you prefer openhole flutes, cool man! I am just speaking against this myth that openhole flutes are superior, or they have a better resale value....that is just plain BULL! A good player can sound exceptional on either one.

Now, if you were talking about the headjoint, that is a whole different matter. :wink:

No hard feelings..

Phineas

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flutepicc06
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Post by flutepicc06 » Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:27 pm

john101 wrote:Sorry guys, you have your opinion I have mine. I simply do not see a downside to buying an open hole flute.

John
In some respects, open holes are actually inferior to closed holes (though that's a different discussion entirely, and doesn't belong in this thread). There is no downside to buying open holes, nor to buying a plateau model (unless you're an acoustician or a repair tech). If you prefer open holes, that's fine, but to state in such a concrete manner that they are superior to closed holes is just plain inaccurate. It's not my goal to change your preferences or opinions, just to be sure that accurate information gets to those that ask for it, and in that vein, I do ask that you make clear what is your opinion, and what is fact. No hard feelings here either, though.

See you on the boards!

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atoriphile
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Post by atoriphile » Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:07 pm

Phineas wrote:Now, if you were talking about the headjoint, that is a whole different matter. :wink:

No hard feelings..

Phineas
I prefer the open hole headjoint myself. It's much easier to play that way!

:)

fluttiegurl
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Post by fluttiegurl » Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:25 pm

Good one :lol:

fluteguy18
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Post by fluteguy18 » Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:48 am

flutepicc06 wrote:
fluteguy18 wrote:Even in the 4-5k price range, you can [depending on the construction materials and the specific company], find rather nice handmade flutes.
I believe I mentioned that in my last post, but it's good to know someone agrees with me! ;-)
My point, was that handmade flutes dont always start in that price range, but rather that depending on the company and construction materials, you can get handmade flutes that have rather nice extra features in that price range. So, this also means that it is possible to get handmade flutes cheaper than this [around 3k or slightly less if you can get a discount] depending on the company, materials and any extra features involved.

I apologize for not being clear. I just wanted the fact to be known that not all handmade flutes start in the 4-5k range, but that a few companies offer handmade flutes cheaper than that.

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flutepicc06
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Post by flutepicc06 » Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:09 am

I see what you were getting at Fluteguy. Sorry for any confusion!
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john101
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Post by john101 » Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:04 am

flutepicc06 wrote:
john101 wrote:Sorry guys, you have your opinion I have mine. I simply do not see a downside to buying an open hole flute.

John
In some respects, open holes are actually inferior to closed holes (though that's a different discussion entirely, and doesn't belong in this thread). There is no downside to buying open holes, nor to buying a plateau model (unless you're an acoustician or a repair tech). If you prefer open holes, that's fine, but to state in such a concrete manner that they are superior to closed holes is just plain inaccurate. It's not my goal to change your preferences or opinions, just to be sure that accurate information gets to those that ask for it, and in that vein, I do ask that you make clear what is your opinion, and what is fact. No hard feelings here either, though.

See you on the boards!
Where did I ever say that one was superior to the other? In fact, I started my post based upon the assumption that you were 100% correct in your comments. I based my opinion upon the the economics of selling this flute later on and my opinion that their is no downside to an open hole flute. Also having children in high school, I can tell you exactly how opinionated and punitive some music teachers can be if their guidance is ignored.

And whats up with criticizing my comment concerning handmade flutes starting at $3000. A Muramatsu Ex starts around $2850 and a Miyazawa 102 starts around $2100. Obviously they are plated bodies, but handmade none the less. In the $4K to 5K range your talking plated keys, solid body and headjoint.

It's not my goal to misguide people. However, I'm not completely sure what your goal is.

John

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flutepicc06
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Post by flutepicc06 » Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:16 am

john101 wrote:
Where did I ever say that one was superior to the other?
Providing the idea that open holes have economic upside insinuates superiority. Assuming you're right about the economic upside, if all else is equal, but there are economic advantages to openholes, as an unknowing reader, which would you say is the better choice? Then there's also the problem of your comment about teachers harrassing students without open holes. Once again, if all else is equal, but you're going to have to endure such comments, which are you going to choose? You see how easily your posts could bias the OP, or anyone else reading them, even if that was not your goal.
I based my opinion upon the the economics of selling this flute later on and my opinion that their is no downside to an open hole flute.
That you did, but in such a way that your opinions were presented as fact. Even a simple word or phrase such as "In my opinion..." or "My experience shows..." would have delineated between your own ideas and those that are indisputably factual, but such a phrase was missing from the post to which both Phineas and I initially disagreed. In any instance, as I said above, as a musician it makes no sense to purchase an instrument based on the future. As a parent financing such a purchase, I can see why you would want an instrument that is easily resaleable, but you're doing your child a disservice if that is all you consider when flute shopping. Major changes in what types of flutes are popular are happening now (for instance, a newfound preference in the US for offset G's over Inline, regardless of level), so what's to say that when/if the OP is ready to sell, whatever they chose will be difficult to find a seller for?
Also having children in high school, I can tell you exactly how opinionated and punitive some music teachers can be if their guidance is ignored.
And as musicians there will always be people who will take a knock at whatever you're playing on, but suggesting that anyone buy an instrument to suit someone else is ridiculous. As I noted above, only a very poorly informed teacher would consider a closed hole Mura as inferior to a similar flute with open holes, and should you encounter someone like this, it's important that you recognize them for the misguided person they are and disregard their opinion on the matter.

And whats up with criticizing my comment concerning handmade flutes starting at $3000.
I disagreed because it simply isn't accurate in the context in which you placed it. Once again you presented it as a hard and fast rule, and there are very few of those when it comes to flute shopping. As I noted above, there are a large number of factors that dictate the price of an instrument, and instruments with a wide range of "handwork" exist. We have no way to know what the OP might consider "handmade." The best that could possibly be done is to provide an average price range (and even then there are going to be items outside that range).
In the $4K to 5K range your talking plated keys, solid body and headjoint.
Also not necessarily true. Take, for example, the used Haynes handmade (SN 32363) for sale at Fluteworld with an asking price of about $4900. I think you'll find that it's silver throughout. It is not at all uncommon to find a used handmade flute that is fully sterling in this price range.

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musical_Kat
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Post by musical_Kat » Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:07 pm

Oh my lord boys......are we 12 now?!!! Good grief.....let's stop the pissing contest and get back to the music! Great...thanks!!

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flutepicc06
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Post by flutepicc06 » Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:43 pm

Musical_Kat, I believe Sidekicker said it pretty well a few months ago when he posted this:

"Unless someone expresses an opinion, whether strong or not, the discussion really doesn't advance much....The remedy for encountering an opinion you don't agree with is to state your own competing position and back it up with information, personal experiences, etc. Either get in the game or stay on the sidelines. Unless a post is outwardly and objectively rude (which shouldn't make it past the moderator anyway), opinions here should remain strong and informative. "

So far the discussion here has remained civil, and we are merely participating in the type of discussion for which this forum was created by putting forth our opinions. As you've undoubtedly seen, there are disagreements from time to time on boards such as this, but as long as they remain respectful, there's nothing wrong with them, and they can actually be quite enlightening. There would be nothing to gain from these forums if we all agreed 100% of the time (not to mention that it would get a bit boring here). Thus far there has been no inappropriate material to turn this thread from a legitimate discussion into a "pissing contest." You may view it as such, but until someone does something against the forum's policy or we reach an acceptable end to the discussion, I'm afraid that you'll either have to put up with it, add your own thoughts (as Sidekicker suggested), or choose to ignore the thread.

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