will a muramatsu flute be good for me ?

Flute History and Instrument Purchase

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musical_Kat
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Post by musical_Kat » Fri Sep 21, 2007 1:11 pm

i'm sorry......I call it like I see it....just because you don't agree with my take on the situation doesn't mean that it isn't valid....as you have said about your point of view over and over again. The back and forth posts stating basically the same things and nitpicking a single word here or there is ridiculous. You can take way too many things out of context that way....and OBVIOUSLY read way too much into the meaning of someone else's posts. You say something and then someone else says the same thing and you have to imediately jump back in and say that you already said it. Just let them agree with you. Why do you have to claim ownership for an idea?! I don't completely agree with either you or john or Phineas on this. I agree with some of the things that all are saying but you don't see me flipping out! All I was trying to do was bring it back to a little bit of perspective. I've got 2 toddlers that don't fight as much! I've said my peice....if you want to continue this argument you will have to do it without me. My earlier comment was to try and end it not make it worse.

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flutepicc06
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Post by flutepicc06 » Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:44 pm

musical_Kat wrote:The back and forth posts stating basically the same things and nitpicking a single word here or there is ridiculous.
And yet a single word is all it takes to completely change the meaning of a post. You may find it ridiculous, but I like to be sure that anyone reading these threads in the future has an accurate thread to read. If you think it's ridiculous, that's fine. Don't feel obligated to read it. But John, Phineas and myself are all adults (at least as far as I gather), and are competent enough to decide when we want to reply to another's posts. As long as we're respectful, it's perfectly within our rights to drag out a conversation for as long as we want to.

I don't completely agree with either you or john or Phineas on this. I agree with some of the things that all are saying but you don't see me flipping out!
Nor do you see us flipping out...I have been calm throughout this entirely exchange. Had I "flipped out," believe me....You'd know. I save my outbursts for real life, though. If anything, YOU seem to be reading more into the posts than anyone else. I read into a post only what the poster has written....It makes things much simpler than trying to guess what they might have meant or been feeling when they posted. If I misunderstand their intent, usually some simple clarification takes care of it, and I'll readdress the post based on what was intended rather than what was written. If you have a different viewpoint than anyone of us, why not post it? That's what these boards are for.
All I was trying to do was bring it back to a little bit of perspective.
Ahh....More "ego checks," then?
My earlier comment was to try and end it not make it worse.
I understand the intent of your post, but disagree with the sentiment behind it. There's no need to end such a discussion unless it gets out of hand (which this one certainly had not). You may decide that it's no longer worth reading, and if that's your opinion, fine...So be it. But it was (and is) merely an academic discussion which doesn't require anyone to break it up, and as SK pointed out, the ideas here don't advance much without some discussion (and on occasion, disagreement).

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musical_Kat
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Post by musical_Kat » Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:07 pm

And yet a single word is all it takes to completely change the meaning of a post. You may find it ridiculous, but I like to be sure that anyone reading these threads in the future has an accurate thread to read.
The problem with this statement is that you are assuming that the people reading it are going to take your word as gold. Hopefully everyone on this board is intelligent enough to be free thinking. Just because one specific word may or may not be the best choice doesn't change the fact that it is still only someone's opinion. Regardless of whether they stated outright that it was indeed just an opinion or not.....I highly doubt that he was saying it like his word was law!

As for My opinion....I think that deciding to purchase an open or closed hole flute is something that differs for everyone. A lot of young students see it as a right of passage to go to an open holed flute. I'm not at all saying that an open holed is a better instrument. Like most have been saying....there isn't really any difference as far as sound goes. Yes.....you have to consider who makes it and how it is constructed. But to back up John here, if you are going to be thinking of a resale later on down the road.....it's probably (and let me CLEARLY state that this is JUST MY OPINION) easier to sell an open holed instrument because of the mythic status it has taken on. To a flute player who is just starting out or a doubler who doesn't know much about the mechanics of the flute, purchasing an open holed flute MAY be a little more appealing. It's kind of like a house.....curb appeal counts for a LOT! Now of course to an educated consumer looking to find a great quality used flute holes may not mean a heck of a lot. Plus...you are forgetting the fact that there are a LOT of very well informed and quality flute players who just prefer to go with open holes. This is of course strickly from a resale value which isn't all that goes into a desicion to drop that kind of money on a flute....OBVIOUSLY.

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flutepicc06
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Post by flutepicc06 » Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:20 pm

musical_Kat wrote: The problem with this statement is that you are assuming that the people reading it are going to take your word as gold. Hopefully everyone on this board is intelligent enough to be free thinking. Just because one specific word may or may not be the best choice doesn't change the fact that it is still only someone's opinion. Regardless of whether they stated outright that it was indeed just an opinion or not.....I highly doubt that he was saying it like his word was law!
No, I don't think everyone reading it will take my word as gold, and I would never pretend to put myself above anyone else....I am still learning new things about the flute every day. In fact, I encourage people to disagree with me if they see fit. I'm not afraid of being challenged every once in a while. However, most of the folks that come to boards like these don't know that much about the instrument (thus the plethora of questions being asked every day), and can easily mistake an opinion for a fact when it's presented in such a concrete way. As I stated above, it's best to take things at face value....Read what is there, not what the poster might have intended to put there, because that is what anyone else down the road is most likely to do. If you interpret it wrongly, clarification is easy to obtain. I'm not saying we all need to write "THIS IS ONLY AN OPINION" whenever we include one, just that we need to be sure to present facts (which are concrete) as facts and opinions (which are not concrete) as opinions.
Plus...you are forgetting the fact that there are a LOT of very well informed and quality flute players who just prefer to go with open holes.
I agree with what you wrote concerning open (aside from the bit about it being easier to sell a French flute, though I've already written on that topic, and won't go into it here) and this is not intended to spark further argument...It is merely an observation. I find that expertise in playing often pairs with decreased awareness of flute lore. I chalk it up to the fact that most of the greats are/were naturally inclined toward the instrument, so they didn't have to solve some of the problems that us mortals encounter, and thus never really needed a great understanding of how the flute works, what goes into its construction, etc. For example, Jimmy Galway is convinced that setting his flutes (assembled) on a straight north-south axis at night improves their resonance, which is sheer voodoo science, but that doesn't stop him believing it. Of course, there are some obvious exceptions to this rule, such as Trevor Wye and WIBB, but there are many anecdotes such as the one about Sir James that concern other greats.

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Phineas
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Post by Phineas » Sat Sep 22, 2007 8:42 am

You know what is childish, when people get their feelings hurt over what is typed on a BBS....I am not going to say any names.

Look, this is a message board on the internet. Half of the fun of reading the message threads is the debate. If there were no difference in point of view, noone would learn anything. This has been a big problem in the flute community as a whole in my opinion. Someone sets a rule, and noone can have an opinion about it.

Fact is, I have been putting message on message boards since most of you were born(around 1978 on dail up BBSs). I have not seen anything threatening or childish at all in the exchange eve though I have expressed my disagreement.

To Musicalkat.

You are constanly on the hunt to attack someone's ego, yet your ego is in competition like everyone elses. This being the case, why not do what everyone else does and express your pinion based on the subject matter and leave the personal attacks to private messages. Your statement about Chris(flutepicc06) having an ego problem is out of line. Anyone on on this board, including yourself, has the right to say what they want to say. The right thing for you to do is say "You are full if it" or "you have your head in a cave" or "you are on a nother planet". However attacking someone personally because they express their opinion alot is not fair. There is nothing stopping you from doing the same thing.

As far as people taking anyone's word as gold is up to the reader. Just like being in a court of law, or in a corporate meeting, the person that best expresses their opinion gets the readers vote of credibility. in the end, it is the reader that has to decide who has the best opinion, or advice. Differences in point of view can only help, until they turn into a sandbox pissing match like this subject has turned into unfortunately. If everyone on this board is free thinking like you say, then they are more than capable of deciding which side they want to take on a discussion.

We are all passionate about this subject, but we have to remember this is only another internet message board. We should not take what we read hear personally.

NOW BACK TO THE SUBJECT!

The closed/open hole thing is based more on tradition than anything else. I do not believe it has anything to do with science. I think we should call this "tradition" of openhole prefessional flutes what it is and leave it at that. If half of the people that complained about my Armstrong 104(when I had one) could play half as good as I could, on their "openholed" flutes, then I would say the openholed flute theory would be valid. The fact is, if a person is not a good player, moving up to an openhole is not going to make them any better sound wise, or ability wise, although a good headjoint might! In most classcal settings, 99% of the "pro" players are going to have an openhole flute. Here in the west that is partially due to availability more than anything. Most of the teachers/pro players I have met did not know that they could even get a handmade closed hole flute, and never seen one unless they have been overseas.

I think the people with the issues are the people whome let the status quo dictate what is best for them, and do not go forth with their own reasoning. If peers in certain circles on the flute community were not so critical, I think you would see more pro level closed hole flutes around.

Phineas

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musical_Kat
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Post by musical_Kat » Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:23 am

Scroll up Phineas....I DID express my opinion.....try reading before going on your tangent.

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Post by fluteguy18 » Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:46 am

:::with a complacent tone:::

Let's just drop this, because this IS just a message board. We can only communicate with the written word, and often times we can forget that words alone do not communicate our attitude and tone the way we meant them to. There are probably some words that could have been chosen more carefully, and quite possibly misinterpretations of the material at hand.

I honestly dont think anyone here is a bad person, I would hate it if someone's feelings were hurt and they never returned to the message board.

Debate is good. Debating is a very effective way to learn and encounter new ideas. If we all shared the same ideas, then everything would be incredibly boring. Arguing is not good because it is deconstructive. We are all adults, and we can all probably agree that in 20 years, this argument over egos will have had little to no effect on our lives by that point. So why waste our time? It just creates hard feelings, and the world being the way it is, people need the least amount of stress and hardship as possible.

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woof
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open vs closed

Post by woof » Sun Sep 23, 2007 9:29 pm

s2jennie wrote: And i want an open hole flute because it can produce a better tone compared to the closed hole.
-_-
I like open hole flutes simply because they feel better to me- I couldn't say or believe any difference in sound but I do like the way the keys feel better than the plateau models. And I like the way they look- so both reason pretty superficial. BUT, I cut my finger the other day and the bandage made playing the open holed flute difficult....... never tho't of that before... bummer. So off came the bandage...

fluttiegurl
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Post by fluttiegurl » Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:04 am

I always keep a plug or two around for this reason. They do not seal 100% (I just have cheap plastic plugs that came off of a step up), but they do the trick when I am in a pinch.

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pied_piper
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Post by pied_piper » Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:21 pm

I've had good luck using liquid skin instead of a bandage. It doesn't interfere with covering the holes unless it's a really bad cut that's directly on the finger pad. YMMV.
"Never give a flute player a screwdriver."
--anonymous--

fluttiegurl
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Post by fluttiegurl » Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:38 pm

I'll have to try that. Thanks for the tip!

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woof
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Post by woof » Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:30 pm

fluttiegurl wrote:I always keep a plug or two around for this reason. They do not seal 100% (I just have cheap plastic plugs that came off of a step up), but they do the trick when I am in a pinch.
Good idea- I still have plugs that came with the flute but didn't even think of that....."if I only had a brain..." Also like liquid bandage but in some cases it isn't enough to cover the boo boo. Maybe the answer is for me to quite playing with sharp objects. Good tips- thanks

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Mark
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Post by Mark » Thu Sep 27, 2007 11:41 pm

ROFL

You're dating yourself Phin....
of course I was on pretty much the same equipment in '80. :lol:

That's a good idea about keeping a couple of plugs around, I think
I'll do that, Fluttiegurl. thanks.


mark (who plays with to many sharp objects himself) :)
So many instruments.... so little time.... :)

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Buttercup
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Post by Buttercup » Sat Oct 13, 2007 2:15 pm

I hate to make sweeping generalisations, but I will anyway!

If you have the money to spare, you can't go wrong with a Muramatsu- however not everyone is suited to playing open-holed so defo try it on for size before buying

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flutepicc06
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Post by flutepicc06 » Sat Oct 13, 2007 3:32 pm

Buttercup wrote:I hate to make sweeping generalisations, but I will anyway!

If you have the money to spare, you can't go wrong with a Muramatsu- however not everyone is suited to playing open-holed so defo try it on for size before buying
Actually, it's quite easy to go wrong buying a Mura or any other brand of instrument if it doesn't suit you, as we've noted several times in this thread. If you have the money for a handmade flute, it's very important that you playtest as many options as you can, even if you think you know what you'll buy, or you risk wasting thousands of dollars on a flute that may not match you well. As for open holes, you don't need to worry too much about them...If you can't handle them (at least right away), some plugs are a simple, cheap solution.

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