Open-holes practice

Basics of Flute Playing, Tone Production and Fingerings, Using Metronomes, Scales, Tone, Studies, etc.

Moderators: Classitar, pied_piper, Phineas

fluteguy18
Posts: 2311
Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 3:11 pm

Post by fluteguy18 » Sat Oct 16, 2010 7:36 am

wkzh: It's not about whether or not the plug has a 'top' but rather about how the bushing/grommet holds the pad in place. Some grommets hold the pad in place without obstructing the hole. Some have a tiny lip that hangs over. If you push it through, and the bushing has a lip, you'll unseat the pad. Miyazawa flutes DO have a little lip, although it is VERY small. Sankyo for example is a flute company that does not utilize bushings that hang over. You can occasionally push them through without problems, but why risk it?

About piper's grip: I personally find it very comfortable and use no strain at all. I am completely relaxed and comfortable (part of what makes that so is I have an adjustable thumb thing on mine like a clarinet/oboe player has to help hold the instrument). But then again, what is ergonomic for you could easily not be ergonomic for me (especially because of my hand structure... my thumbs are 'short' because of a joint defect that I have **the knuckle is stiff/frozen and won't turn at all**).

Phineas: I agree that in most cases the holes are under utilized and honestly seem to be more of a stature/snobbery thing than they should be. I personally use the holes all the time to do alternate fingerings to help with intonation in the upper register (when embouchure changes just WON'T do it!). In my world, holes are a necessity. Split e on the other hand... not so much. I kind of wish I had the donut/facilitator right now because the split e renders some alternate fingerings useless.

User avatar
MissyHPhoenix
Posts: 368
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 5:19 pm
Location: Hammond, LA, USA

Post by MissyHPhoenix » Sat Oct 16, 2010 7:53 am

I agree with Phineas -- in my experience, flutists can be SO snobby to each other. None of the other flutists that I know utilize the open holes in any way such as FG18 does, but there is a very subtle "sneer" at the poor unfortunates who use closed hole flutes! Also, I have and use a Thumbport when my arthritis is acting up and it helps a lot, but I have been looked down on by other players for using it. I get the "oh, I'm good enough that I don't have to use gadgets like that" type of comments, and I struggle to control my temper when that happens. I had one student who could not control her right hand without a Thumbport, but her band director told her she could NOT use it because it was a bad crutch!

I have plugs in three of my keys and have no plan to take them out. If you need them, use them! What is even better, I outplay all of the people who looked down their noses at me before.

:lol: :lol:
Missy

Why Be Normal????

wkzh
Posts: 103
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 3:45 am

Post by wkzh » Mon Oct 18, 2010 9:15 am

fg18: Yeah, I was thinking about the grommet too, but because the flutes around me are mostly Sankyos and Muramatsus, I suppose I wouldn't have had the chance to observe that.

About piper's grip: my "ergonomics" doesn't just include "relaxed" and "comfortable", it must be "welcoming" too. I like to have a nice feel of having something under my fingers, so I personally wouldn't like using a piper's grip simply because I don't like it. That said, it's all subjective: isn't that what ergonomics is about? user-centric. I also like the look of it: plateau keys are... just too shiney. And plugs dull it too =/ just a personal preference, though. Ceteris paribus, perforated keys are cool, period.

So that ties in with using perforated keys too: I like the "feel" of having air under my fingers, so you could say this is a form of rational snobbishness. Of course, I do not just have it for the "feel" but use it for alternate fingerings and other things like quartertones for non-Western music (because I am a non-Western in the first place), intonation yes yes, the occasional multiphonic, and finger portamenti. The flute would be too boring an instrument without the perforations!

About the E mech... I actually find that it opens up more possibilities for alternate fingerings because we aren't using open-G# flutes so we can't access that tone hole independently with "normal" fingerings. Here's where the perforation comes in handy. Tell me, which alternate fingering is rendered useless by the E mech, and you HONESTLY think it is truly a good alternate fingering? The G-A trill, for example, using the C# trill key is so much better, why would you want a trill with a nasty tone that doesn't blend? (There are fingerings that allow for the E mech and do not require the C# trill key too, but they're not as simple.)

Missy: I agree too, musicians are generally snobs, and you can't exactly blame them, for we ourselves would have this "fanciful notion" in our heads too but don't let it get in the way of good common sense, but particularly for flautists because we've a snob culture of our own to look up to. (think Stradivari varnish) Yes, those players ARE actually "good enough" to hold the flute, but they fail to realise that all that means is that they're good enough at holding the flute. That doesn't mean that's not important: in situations when you don't have your gadgets to help, e.g. trying out new instruments, it'd be good to be able to adapt reasonably well too.

If a thumbport's a bad crutch... then the band director's baton's a bad hand extension! (If the director doesn't use a baton... well, too bad.)
The flute family: probing the lower limit of human hearing and the upper limit of human tolerance.

etc-etc
Posts: 36
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:33 pm

Re: Open-holes practice

Post by etc-etc » Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:41 pm

Would you prefer having French keys on an alto flute? One could make it work with very large hands and very long fingers.

wkzh
Posts: 103
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 3:45 am

Re: Open-holes practice

Post by wkzh » Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:42 am

Actually that's been done already... pretty long while ago: Eva Kingma builds alto flutes with perforated keys, and has mechanically expanded this to the other depdendent keys of the flute using a "key-on-key" mechanism. If you want to discuss more on this, I think you should start a new thread. Anyway, having such large finger spacings, it would put considerable strain on the hands unless you have an ultra-ergonomic mechanism, which means that the flute must really be built to the player and finding "alternate ways of holding" is not an options. Even so, it may not be sufficient. The weight and length of the flute (for a straight flute) already poses a problem to many players. Personally, I think I can only decide if I actually try an instrument, but assuming I'm fine with it, then yes I would prefer having French keys. (Once again, it looks cool ^^)
The flute family: probing the lower limit of human hearing and the upper limit of human tolerance.

lula
Posts: 153
Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2009 7:58 pm

Re: Open-holes practice

Post by lula » Wed Oct 20, 2010 6:29 pm

I understand about playing C4 with an open holed flute. One of my old teachers made me switch to open hole and that was the hardest note for me. It takes a little while to get used to that note. I still mess up sometimes when I have to play my C scale.

Good luck. :)
...MUSIC HAS REPLACED HER HEARTBEAT...

User avatar
MissyHPhoenix
Posts: 368
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 5:19 pm
Location: Hammond, LA, USA

Re: Open-holes practice

Post by MissyHPhoenix » Thu Oct 21, 2010 8:42 am

Is high C harder with an open-hole flute? I've never found that to be so, but maybe it is the flute.
Missy

Why Be Normal????

wkzh
Posts: 103
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 3:45 am

Re: Open-holes practice

Post by wkzh » Thu Oct 21, 2010 9:02 am

By C4 are you referring to lowest C or the highest C? Gagh notation issues.

If it's low C, then any issues are likely due to leaks, easily solvable (unless repadding is required).

If it's high C... well, the venting is affected somewhat, but I don't suppose it's significant enough. Unless you've a very strong and sensitive embouchure to detect such changes, the problem can be explained by various mundane reasons: a different headjoint cut, different taper, headjoint stopper moved inward slightly more, different foot joint, etc. Not easily solvable, or at least not as straightforward.
The flute family: probing the lower limit of human hearing and the upper limit of human tolerance.

ichliebe
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:45 pm

Re: Open-holes practice

Post by ichliebe » Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:26 pm

pay more attention on C. :wink:

bethany527
Posts: 1
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2011 12:18 am
Contact:

jzfb the wailing asteroid by murray leinster trbqn

Post by bethany527 » Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:32 pm

Appreciate the info, it’s good to know.
new adidas shoes

saacbeser
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2011 3:24 am
Contact:

Re: Open-holes practice

Post by saacbeser » Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:10 am

Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 1:44 pm
Posts: 340 Was wondering why some open hole flutes come with plugs while others don't? My new 14K Brannen and my Haynes did not come with plugs, but my Gemmy camping flute does have plastic plugs?

fluttiegurl
Posts: 882
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 11:05 pm

Re: Open-holes practice

Post by fluttiegurl » Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:26 pm

I think it is just an assumption that when you buy a high end flute, you don't need/want plugs. This is probably due to the fact that most flutes come with closed hole options.

wkzh
Posts: 103
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 3:45 am

Re: Open-holes practice

Post by wkzh » Wed Aug 24, 2011 2:25 am

I think it's pretty much the other way around: a significant number of people who buy lower end flutes are young learners who do not have sufficient hand size to play an open-hole flute.
The flute family: probing the lower limit of human hearing and the upper limit of human tolerance.

Post Reply