Roll In or Out???

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PiccolloPam
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Roll In or Out???

Post by PiccolloPam » Thu Jul 27, 2006 12:05 am

When I play I have a tendency to roll in, so my teacher instructs me to roll out but then what happens is my shoulder tightens, my right wrist pops in the air so my thumb is not aligned correctly and then I can not play at all so I put it right back where I had it and then it starts all over again... What should I do?

MeLizzard
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Post by MeLizzard » Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:48 am

Your teacher is right about the turning-out thing--it helps our tone and intonation. If you've played in the other position for some time, you'll have to adjust. A mirror can be helpful. After getting your headjoint in the correct position, have you repositioned the body (relative to the head) so your hands are still in the correct position? :D

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Zevang
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Holding the Flute

Post by Zevang » Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:06 am

A comment by Sir James Galway that maybe helps...
Zevang

=====================
Dear Friends,

This is Rockstro on holding the flute. It is what I have done for the last 50 years and I have never had any problems playing. It is the only way to a superior finger technique.

Best wishes,
Sir James.
Switzerland.

==========================
The Supporting of the Flute.



712. In order that the flute may be held at all times steadily and firmly, one of the essential conditions for good playing, its support must not be allowed to depend on any parts of the hands which are required to act, either directly or indirectly, on the finger-holes.

It must therefore be pressed against the lower part of the under lip by means of the base of the left hand first finger and the tip of the right hand thumb. The pressure of the finger and the thumb must be nearly horizontal and exactly opposed. The left hand first finger, being placed against the outer side of the flute (at a short distance above the c"# hole, or the touch of its key), will press the upper part of the flute inwards. The tip of the right hand thumb, being placed against the inner side of the flute (almost between the first and second fingers of the right hand), will press the lower part of the flute outwards.

The flute will thus become a lever of the first order [i.e. a lever with the pivot-point in the middle e.g. a see-saw], the left hand first finger being the fulcrum, and the right hand thumb the power. It will be evident that if the right hand thumb were placed under the flute, exercising pressure in an upward direction, depression of the head-joint could only be prevented by the downward pressure of one or more of the right hand fingers, or by the upward pressure of the left hand thumb. Either of these correctives would necessarily violate the primary rule for supporting the flute. The thumb will have no tendency to slip if its pressure be directed exactly
towards the centre of the bore.

The thumb should always be placed to the right of the first finger, otherwise the action of the fourth finger on the open keys of the foot-joint might cause the first finger to act as a fulcrum, and the thumb would thus acquire a tendency to move the head-joint on the lip at the moment when the steadiness of the flute would be of the greatest importance.

713. It will be found convenient to allow the left hand thumb, and perhaps some of the fingers of both hands, to aid in holding the flute previously to its contact with the lip. There can be no possible objection to this temporary use of the thumb and fingers, but during performance the flute must depend for its support entirely on the three points before mentioned. Players on the eight-keyed, or any other flute with the old fingering, may rest the left hand thumb against the flute, being careful that no support shall be thus given to the instrument.

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Zevang
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Post by Zevang » Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:25 am


PiccolloPam
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Post by PiccolloPam » Thu Jul 27, 2006 11:08 am

After I put the headjoint and my head in the correct position then my hands are not right and then when I fix my hands my headjoint is wrong again.

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Zevang
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Post by Zevang » Thu Jul 27, 2006 3:35 pm

PicolloPam,

Maybe you could ask someone to take pictures of you holding the flute, so we can see it better and try to help you more effectively.

Well, just an idea...

Zevang

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flutepicc06
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Post by flutepicc06 » Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:40 am

PiccolloPam wrote:After I put the headjoint and my head in the correct position then my hands are not right and then when I fix my hands my headjoint is wrong again.
You should view the body and the headjoint as two separate entities. First find the angle of the headjoint that you/your teacher want(s), regardless of where that might put your hands. Then, maintaining the angle of the head, rotate the body so that your hands are once again in a comfortable position. Remember, the embouchure hole does not have to stay aligned with the keys, or in any other definite spot. You are free to move both, and viewing the head and body separately should let you change the head without affecting the body.

fluteguy18
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Post by fluteguy18 » Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:49 am

I agree with flutepicc06. However, my teacher has a different view on the roll in/out thing. She really buys into the whole "what works for me might not work for you" bit. So she doesnt really care about the headjoint angle, but rather the key angle towards the audience (her opinion is that the audience can recieve better sound quality). So, in my expieriance, I ended up turning the headjoint in a little bit. It helped my sound a lot, and the flute (FOR ME) responded better (particularly in the lower octave and the fourth octave). After moving the headjoint, I no longer needed to roll the flute either way.

So, this is my .02 but I am sure that others are screaming in dismay about what I have said. This is what works for me. When I rolled out, even after adjusting my embouchure my sound quality suffered (I have been told my sound is much fuller than my professor's sound *now that I found the "sweet" spot *, but after the rolling out change it became thin and airy)

So trust your teacher. He/she can hear you better than you can hear yourself. They are just trying to make you better. Making me better meant rolling in, but for most others it means rolling out.

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flutepicc06
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Post by flutepicc06 » Wed Aug 02, 2006 11:04 am

fluteguy18 wrote: So she doesnt really care about the headjoint angle, but rather the key angle towards the audience (her opinion is that the audience can recieve better sound quality).
I've heard this before. It's one of the reasons why some people are so against new headjoint styles like Drelinger's UpRite. They think that the sound vents from the keys as well as the embouchure hole, and playing with the flute vertical rather than horizontal changes the direction the keys are venting enough for a noticeable difference in the audience. Personally, I can't say I agree with that, but then I don't always agree with people on what difference may or may not exist between different materials, etc. I suppose this is one of those things that doesn't have a definitive answer.

fluteguy18
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Post by fluteguy18 » Wed Aug 02, 2006 9:28 pm

See, I dont like the idea of the UpRite either. I really dont see why it matters where your headjoint is rolled, as long as you have found the best spot for YOU. Who knows, there might be someone out there who's sweet spot is having the headjoint upside down and playing with thier bottom lip (i really doubt it, but it is fun to try to do).

As for the materials debate, I think the material does make a sound difference. I tried several Williams flutes, all of the same model but different materials and combos. People could really tell the difference between the silver and gold, and the gold and platinum. I prefered a silver instrument with a gold riser and lipplate, but almost everyone else thought I was best on the all 14k. I liked the one I did b/c it had a really warm sound, had a wide color palette, and it felt to me that silver projects better on flute rather than gold ( projection of sound is my forte). However, I really hated platinum. It gives a good penetrating sound, but I didn't like it at all. not my cup of tea. but if I had 20k to spend, I would go with gold in a flute b/c I hear the sound difference. (keep in mind, that I really wasn't favorable for the williams flutes at all- great flutes, but not my style)
I also heard someone at a work shop who played a 14k powell, and then played a silver powell to show the difference. and there was a huge differnce. But, some people are really rare players that sound good on everything, so for some the material doesnt matter that much.

But pretty much, like flutepicc06 said, there is no definitive answer to either of these debates, so it is useless (but sometimes fun) to argue the different perspecives.

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