Q: Key Adjustment

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Thunderlily
Posts: 31
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:53 pm

Re: Q: Key Adjustment

Post by Thunderlily » Sat Aug 10, 2013 8:16 pm

flutego12 wrote:
Thunderlily wrote:Since I know that you are going to Red Wing I'll tell you what they'll teach you there :)

Regulation issues are fixed with either regulation screws, or flexing.

First off, take the upper stack and the thumb assembly off.
When you're done regulating the D, E and F to the F#, add the upper stack, then you have to adjust the A key to the Bb (the Bb being the key that the F is supposed to close later on) with a regulation screw. Then you have to regulate F to Bb, you have to flex the upper bridge for that, very carefully and tiny movements at a time with parallel pliers that you have put a protection on (they have some plastic thing you glue on at school, can't remember the name of it at the moment, anyways..).
Now put on the thumb assembly. Regulate the B thumb lever to the Bb by flexing the lever (the touchpiece side of the lever) with protected parallel pliers.


Now, some folks here regulate by fixing corks around, and that's okay too, whatever works for them, they've probably been doing it for years and like it that way (and I fully respect them for doing so). I'm just writing this up because I know you're going to Red Wing, don't bring me a shitstorm for this.
Hey Thunderlily, it's great to hear from you! Thanks for sharing your RW gems with us. I think tho it's the handsome fluteguy who is going. lol =p I am investigating the best training route for me as I have to cross continents and oceans to get there. plus my local currency has taken hammering lately :?

I wish this was the first time that I thought you two were the same person (only because of the similar username, bah...)
But I also had to cross oceans and live in a different continent (speaking my second language solely for nine months was also fun).

Of course fluteguy18 is handsome, he plays flute, how could he not be?

Thunderlily
Posts: 31
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:53 pm

Re: Q: Key Adjustment

Post by Thunderlily » Sat Aug 10, 2013 8:26 pm

mirwa wrote:
Thunderlily wrote:Now, some folks here regulate by fixing corks around, and that's okay too, whatever works for them, they've probably been doing it for years and like it that way (and I fully respect them for doing so). I'm just writing this up because I know you're going to Red Wing, don't bring me a shitstorm for this.
No shitstorm. I have some good friends who went to redwing.

What you get taught at schools is an established way of doing something, doesnt mean its right or wrong, just established.

The following is IMO.

When one flexes or bends a key to regulate, certain things happen. Example lets say my low D key is too high, if you were to bend the foot of the key down it actually because its on a pivot alters the relationship of the pad to the tone hole, it will infact create a leak, the best key to see this happen is the low Eb, lift the touch lever (flex it) and Eb will start leaking at the front or the back of the pad.

I never lift or regulate by bending keys on an instrument that has pads already fitted, if Im fitting the pads, then its open season and Ill bend them to perfection and then deal with pad to to tone hole relationship afterwards as Im working with a new pad.

But if its an old pad, bending the foot or regulation runs high risks of creating leaks, for me screws or corks on old pads

All of course IMO.

Mirwa, correct me if I'm in the wrong (I know you have years of experience on me), but when you flex the bridge, you don't change the pad closing at all. I mean, there's risk of moving it if you hold on to the padcup while flexing the bridge, but if you're careful, and hold on to the right things, you shouldn't change the angle of the pad cup, in relation to the hinge tube it's on, and therefore not creating a leak.
Oh, I think you're thinking a bit about key height (I'm tired and just had a beer, so don't take me too seriously), but why wouldn't you just fix that by sanding the footcork? (also hoping I'm thinking about the right key). Are you lifting the low Eb lever when it's on the instrument? I'll just try it sometime tomorrow morning on my extra flute and see if I can understand it better.
Keep in mind that I'm just trying to understand, and I'm curious about how other people do things, and I try to see it from a different viewpoint.

fluteguy18
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Re: Q: Key Adjustment

Post by fluteguy18 » Sat Aug 10, 2013 8:39 pm

Oh My! The Mrs. will be getting jealous. I on the other hand...

Image


flutego12, Thank you for checking out my blog by the way. I've been wondering if it's just robots trolling through but I recently got a nod as one of the top reads for the month of July from another classical music blogger who gets a lot of traffic. That was really nice of him!

mirwa
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Re: Q: Key Adjustment

Post by mirwa » Sat Aug 10, 2013 9:14 pm

Thunderlily wrote:when you flex the bridge, you don't change the pad closing at all. I mean, there's risk of moving it if you hold on to the padcup while flexing the bridge, but if you're careful, and hold on to the right things, you shouldn't change the angle of the pad cup, in relation to the hinge tube it's on, and therefore not creating a leak.
You are correct. But considerations to the following have to be made. Take a piece of steel approx 1.6mm thick and bend it to a 45 degree angle, let it sit for 2 days and come back to it, you will see it is no longer in the same shape (metal memory). When you bend the metal you get compression and tension happening on either side of the bend, the metal after a while relaxes and settles into its new position. Im not trying to teach how to suck eggs, but I thought I would simplify before I start my explanation.

When you bend something like the bridge linkage from F to Bb then you are in essence twisting the tube that travels the distance, many times you will twist the tube, it will look good, but two days later, its leaking, there are ways of overbending and bending back (work hardening) to try and minimise this settling in period, but cork is always consistent, if you cork it now, tomorrow and the day after it will still be the same. I do bend, I do overbend, I do cork, knowing which method to use is something that IMO comes with time.
Thunderlily wrote:Oh, I think you're thinking a bit about key height (I'm tired and just had a beer, so don't take me too seriously), but why wouldn't you just fix that by sanding the footcork? (also hoping I'm thinking about the right key).
Again correct, on a key that has an original pad I will recork or sand to change and minimise the lost motions. But if its a new pad going on then I will bend the foot of the key to allow approx .5mm cork to be fitted to the foot and achieve clean movement (no lost motion)
Thunderlily wrote:Are you lifting the low Eb lever when it's on the instrument? I'll just try it sometime tomorrow morning on my extra flute and see if I can understand it better.
Yes, eb is a classic example of what happens. Get your feeler gauge and clock the pad contact at 8 points, now lift the eb lever as if you are trying to raise its key height to achieve a more fluant rollover to C/C#, now reclock you pad, you now have leaks, if not leaks you will notice a shift in the contact pressure points, which will give a hesitant sound when going from second C to 1st D, its more noticeable on the eb key because of the short distance between the eb keycup and the eb contact lever, by bending the lever up or down your twisting the tube which in turn is twisting the keycup angle

Mirwa is actually my business name, I also go by Steve

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flutego12
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Re: Q: Key Adjustment

Post by flutego12 » Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:35 am

mirwa wrote:
Thunderlily wrote:Now, some folks here regulate by fixing corks around, and that's okay too, whatever works for them, they've probably been doing it for years and like it that way (and I fully respect them for doing so). I'm just writing this up because I know you're going to Red Wing, don't bring me a shitstorm for this.
No shitstorm. I have some good friends who went to redwing.

What you get taught at schools is an established way of doing something, doesnt mean its right or wrong, just established.

The following is IMO.

When one flexes or bends a key to regulate, certain things happen. Example lets say my low D key is too high, if you were to bend the foot of the key down it actually because its on a pivot alters the relationship of the pad to the tone hole, it will infact create a leak, the best key to see this happen is the low Eb, lift the touch lever (flex it) and Eb will start leaking at the front or the back of the pad.

I never lift or regulate by bending keys on an instrument that has pads already fitted, if Im fitting the pads, then its open season and Ill bend them to perfection and then deal with pad to to tone hole relationship afterwards as Im working with a new pad.

But if its an old pad, bending the foot or regulation runs high risks of creating leaks, for me screws or corks on old pads

All of course IMO.
I would tend to agree with you on this. I would not dare go down the structural patch at all - which requires brute strength to start with AND a whole lot of skill to get "right" - not that it's right. Besides if one changes a structure to patch fix a problem - the domino tips to affect another issue and another and another over time, one ends up in a nightmare with a very compromised instrument - the problem exponentiates to the power of ignorance. I would recork or refelt in this instance. In fact that was what was done and the fix is perfect. Actually worked that out, then flipped and then flipped back to original solution when affirmed by Bob's comments.

Love all these discussions. Thanks Steve. I actually have a whole bunch of fresh Qs for you and Sensei Bob. Has the Council agreed on a Repair & Maintenance site ?
flutist with a screwdriver

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flutego12
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Re: Q: Key Adjustment

Post by flutego12 » Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:45 am

fluteguy18 wrote:Oh My! The Mrs. will be getting jealous. I on the other hand...
heheh :mrgreen: Good we got that cleared up mr & mrs fluteguy18 :wink: Was just teasing. apologies.

Image


flutego12, Thank you for checking out my blog by the way. I've been wondering if it's just robots trolling through but I recently got a nod as one of the top reads for the month of July from another classical music blogger who gets a lot of traffic. That was really nice of him!
That's great. I thought I gave you a LIKE as well but I wasn't logged on and got bumped off before I did. Must be the memory trying to remember all the different password!

Keep it going.
flutist with a screwdriver

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flutego12
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Re: Q: Key Adjustment

Post by flutego12 » Thu Aug 15, 2013 9:08 am

mirwa wrote:If pads are closing correctly and again this is the most important thing before doing any regulations, then proceed as follows

Adjust f.e.d to each close f#
Adjust e to close g2 for split g mechs
Adjust a to close bb
Adjust thumb lever to close bb with b
Adjust bridge cork to close bb with f
Adjust foot roller to close c and c# together

Cork to remove lost motions

Test play

If notes are stuffy then provided again the pads are sealing correctly, and i cannot re-interate this enough then you need to adjust key heights via the foot corks. How does the key height affect this?I hope JLSmith's keyheight gauge is back in stock. Is there another supplier?

When a flute comes in with problems associated with f and bb, the first thing I do is check the flute is not bent. If the bodies not bent then someone has bent some keys or someone that doesn't know what there doing has played with the mechanism

Steve

http://www.mirwa.com.au
Hi Steve, I think I've finally encountered one of those tampered flutes! How annoying... but, makes a good tinker toy methods flute and an early involuntary entry into structural alignment. On all other flutes I've encountered, the keys leave an equidistant circumference around the tone hole. Well, this one is suspect. The "pad exposure" around the close ain't equal :x :| I ain't happy. Prima facie observations lead me to think that EITHER the key posts for the entire RH mechanism has been shifted OR (because the keys all have differing exposures, some smart alec had bent some keys! Expletives................!@#T&!
Help.
I suppose this justifies my purchase of one of JLSmith's key bending pliers, but it bends keys from side to side and raises the tilt either in the back or the front but not both. Cant remember which.
How and what tools should I use to bend them back OMG.

Can I clarify, when Pied Piper, mirwa, JButky talkabout the first thing you check when padding is that the keys or pad exposures are equal, I used to think you meant looking at it from the side for flushness. I'm beginning to think you meant it to be looking at the pads from the bottom to see if the yellow ring around the tone holes are equal. WHICH IS CORRECT - or did you mean both? Thanks in a jam.

(Spring tensioning aside...on another thread)...
flutist with a screwdriver

mirwa
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Re: Q: Key Adjustment

Post by mirwa » Fri Aug 16, 2013 3:43 am

I dont know what key bending pliers your talking off, ive never used a pair of plyers made in this instance, you have me intrigued

Some manufacturers just do a mediocre job at getting keys to close correctly in relation to there prospective tone holes, to remedy some instruments would require desoldering and reshaping and so forth.

Reasons why a flute that had well centred pads to start with no longer centres are and are not limited too

Manufactured like that
Bent instrument body
Knocked post
Loose mechanisms
Worn screws
Bent keys
Incorrectly sized pads fitted

The trick is identifying the cause and remedying the situation.

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flutego12
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Re: Q: Key Adjustment

Post by flutego12 » Fri Aug 16, 2013 10:02 am

mirwa wrote:I dont know what key bending pliers your talking off, ive never used a pair of plyers made in this instance, you have me intrigued JLS has various Kowalski leveling pliers on offer on his website. Hv a look

Some manufacturers just do a mediocre job at getting keys to close correctly in relation to there prospective tone holes, to remedy some instruments would require desoldering and reshaping and so forth.This one's on a F100ASII which is supposed to have good QA.

Reasons why a flute that had well centred pads to start with no longer centres are and are not limited too

Manufactured like that
Bent instrument body
Knocked post Maybe
Loose mechanisms ?
Worn screws Interesting - how is that?
Bent keys SUSPECT!
Incorrectly sized pads fitted How does that affect that?

The trick is identifying the cause and remedying the situation.
flutist with a screwdriver

mirwa
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Re: Q: Key Adjustment

Post by mirwa » Fri Aug 16, 2013 7:36 pm

An incorrectly sized pad will make contact with the tone hole during the ideal travel,

Example

An overly thick pad will make contact with the tone hole at the rear, this means a partial shim would be fitted to the front or the key physically bent to acquire a uniform contact, by doing this you will have a small projection of pad at the rear and a large projection of the pad area showing at the front, a thin pad is reversed.

On a previous post Ive mentioned IMO, the ideal pad projection from a key cup is 0.015",

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