Q: Key Adjustment

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flutego12
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Q: Key Adjustment

Post by flutego12 » Wed May 29, 2013 1:38 am

I'm hoping somebody might advise on this ...

Background:
Having first regulated the (1) D, E & F keys to F# key (individually in that order) with adjustment screws; and then (2) the C key to B-flat key - to ensure that they shut simultaneously...
Symptom arises when F key is pressed, Bflat key closes ahead of F & F#keys which both have still about 0.5mm more to travel before a seal can be achieved.


Is the solution, either:
1) to increase the key height of B flat key by reducing the cork/felt on the key arm (which in this case sits on the lower B/Bflat key arm), so that the travel distance to tone hole close equals that of F&F#
OR
2) to reduce the key heights of the F & F# keys by adjusting the key pads (in the past had suspected a key levelling issue where the back of the key touches the tone hole ahead of the outer edges; now however, I realise that the sluggishness is due to Bb being already closed in the LH mechanism... OR...alternatively to level the keys (last resort)

Lkg fwd to your kind suggestions, Bob, Steve, Mr Joe Butky and any other knowledgeable souls out there.

Afterthought: I suppose the first thing you would ask is this: Whether I first adjusted the keypads before I regulated the keys?
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mirwa
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Re: Q: Key Adjustment

Post by mirwa » Wed May 29, 2013 4:14 am

If pads are closing correctly and again this is the most important thing before doing any regulations, then proceed as follows

Adjust f.e.d to each close f#
Adjust e to close g2 for split g mechs
Adjust a to close bb
Adjust thumb lever to close bb with b
Adjust bridge cork to close bb with f
Adjust foot roller to close c and c# together

Cork to remove lost motions

Test play

If notes are stuffy then provided again the pads are sealing correctly, and i cannot re-interate this enough then you need to adjust key heights via the foot corks.

When a flute comes in with problems associated with f and bb, the first thing I do is check the flute is not bent. If the bodies not bent then someone has bent some keys or someone that doesn't know what there doing has played with the mechanism

Steve

http://www.mirwa.com.au

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JButky
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Re: Q: Key Adjustment

Post by JButky » Wed May 29, 2013 6:24 am

flutego12 wrote:I'm hoping somebody might advise on this ...

Symptom arises when F key is pressed, Bflat key closes ahead of F & F#keys which both have still about 0.5mm more to travel before a seal can be achieved.


Is the solution, either:
1) to increase the key height of B flat key by reducing the cork/felt on the key arm (which in this case sits on the lower B/Bflat key arm), so that the travel distance to tone hole close equals that of F&F#
OR
2) to reduce the key heights of the F & F# keys by adjusting the key pads (in the past had suspected a key levelling issue where the back of the key touches the tone hole ahead of the outer edges; now however, I realise that the sluggishness is due to Bb being already closed in the LH mechanism... OR...alternatively to level the keys (last resort)

Afterthought: I suppose the first thing you would ask is this: Whether I first adjusted the keypads before I regulated the keys?
There are three rules of procedure.
1. seat the pad first
2. Regulate keys together (you cannot regulate keys where the pads don't seat properly
3. Set key height/remove lost motion.

You have to do these in this order.

If the Bb clutch is over-regulated, strip off any material on the Bb clutch and replace for appropriate regulation. If it is still over regulated with NO material on it, Then the tab is most likely bent and will need to be adjusted to provide enough clearance to add felt or cork for proper regulation. You may want to see exactly what the key height is for the F key (a governing factor in key height) It is not usual but sometimes that one is bent. (Someone pulled the F key up and that is causing the over regulation)
Joe B

ghostNote
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Re: Q: Key Adjustment

Post by ghostNote » Fri Jun 07, 2013 6:32 am

Make sure to check and see that there hasn't been any foreign matter clogging up the linkage from your F key!

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flutego12
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Re: Q: Key Adjustment

Post by flutego12 » Fri Aug 02, 2013 6:47 pm

mirwa wrote:If pads are closing correctly and again this is the most important thing before doing any regulations, then proceed as follows

Adjust f.e.d to each close f#
Adjust e to close g2 for split g mechs
Adjust a to close bb
Adjust thumb lever to close bb with b Hello Steve. How does one regulate the timing between the B/Bb thumb keys. Is there an adjustment screw for this. I have a current issue where the Bb thumb key fails to fully close by a good 1.5-2mm because the Bkey on top has already closed and there is no more travel hence obstructing the close. Thought this might be a regulation issue perhaps but can't find the adjustment screw.
Adjust bridge cork to close bb with f
Adjust foot roller to close c and c# together

Cork to remove lost motions

Test play

If notes are stuffy then provided again the pads are sealing correctly, and i cannot re-interate this enough then you need to adjust key heights via the foot corks.

When a flute comes in with problems associated with f and bb, the first thing I do is check the flute is not bent. If the bodies not bent then someone has bent some keys or someone that doesn't know what there doing has played with the mechanism

Steve

http://www.mirwa.com.au
flutist with a screwdriver

mirwa
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Re: Q: Key Adjustment

Post by mirwa » Fri Aug 02, 2013 6:56 pm

Remove any felt or cork between the B and the Bb spatula lever,
Close the B key gently and then close the Bb lever until the Bb pad shuts,
The gap between the lever and the B key cup needs to be filled with an appropriate size thickness of cork or felt to allow the two to close together.
Sometimes slight bending may be required

Long story short, the regulation is not done with a screw but with varying cork or felt thickness's

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flutego12
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Re: Q: Key Adjustment

Post by flutego12 » Fri Aug 02, 2013 7:13 pm

mirwa wrote:Remove any felt or cork between the B and the Bb spatula lever,
Close the B key gently and then close the Bb lever until the Bb pad shuts,
The gap between the lever and the B key cup needs to be filled with an appropriate size thickness of cork or felt to allow the two to close together.
Sometimes slight bending may be required

Long story short, the regulation is not done with a screw but with varying cork or felt thickness's
Ahh of course. Thanks Steve. I thought I had that worked out earlier in a stroke of brilliance and that I should refelt between the spatulas but then had a subsequent short circuit in thoughts and thought it wouldn't work after all! Good brain training anyhow.

Thank you for that. Best regards :wink:
Update: Works beautifully now. Just repadded the entire right hand mech. Do we have to clip the keys to seat them after repadding everytime?
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Thunderlily
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Re: Q: Key Adjustment

Post by Thunderlily » Sat Aug 10, 2013 6:17 am

Since I know that you are going to Red Wing I'll tell you what they'll teach you there :)

Regulation issues are fixed with either regulation screws, or flexing.

First off, take the upper stack and the thumb assembly off.
When you're done regulating the D, E and F to the F#, add the upper stack, then you have to adjust the A key to the Bb (the Bb being the key that the F is supposed to close later on) with a regulation screw. Then you have to regulate F to Bb, you have to flex the upper bridge for that, very carefully and tiny movements at a time with parallel pliers that you have put a protection on (they have some plastic thing you glue on at school, can't remember the name of it at the moment, anyways..).
Now put on the thumb assembly. Regulate the B thumb lever to the Bb by flexing the lever (the touchpiece side of the lever) with protected parallel pliers.


Now, some folks here regulate by fixing corks around, and that's okay too, whatever works for them, they've probably been doing it for years and like it that way (and I fully respect them for doing so). I'm just writing this up because I know you're going to Red Wing, don't bring me a shitstorm for this.

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flutego12
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Re: Q: Key Adjustment

Post by flutego12 » Sat Aug 10, 2013 8:32 am

Thunderlily wrote:Since I know that you are going to Red Wing I'll tell you what they'll teach you there :)

Regulation issues are fixed with either regulation screws, or flexing.

First off, take the upper stack and the thumb assembly off.
When you're done regulating the D, E and F to the F#, add the upper stack, then you have to adjust the A key to the Bb (the Bb being the key that the F is supposed to close later on) with a regulation screw. Then you have to regulate F to Bb, you have to flex the upper bridge for that, very carefully and tiny movements at a time with parallel pliers that you have put a protection on (they have some plastic thing you glue on at school, can't remember the name of it at the moment, anyways..).
Now put on the thumb assembly. Regulate the B thumb lever to the Bb by flexing the lever (the touchpiece side of the lever) with protected parallel pliers.


Now, some folks here regulate by fixing corks around, and that's okay too, whatever works for them, they've probably been doing it for years and like it that way (and I fully respect them for doing so). I'm just writing this up because I know you're going to Red Wing, don't bring me a shitstorm for this.
Hey Thunderlily, it's great to hear from you! Thanks for sharing your RW gems with us. I think tho it's the handsome fluteguy who is going. lol =p I am investigating the best training route for me as I have to cross continents and oceans to get there. plus my local currency has taken hammering lately :?
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fluteguy18
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Re: Q: Key Adjustment

Post by fluteguy18 » Sat Aug 10, 2013 12:16 pm

Handsome? Me?! Oh the flattery! :oops:

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pied_piper
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Re: Q: Key Adjustment

Post by pied_piper » Sat Aug 10, 2013 3:10 pm

:lol:
"Never give a flute player a screwdriver."
--anonymous--

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flutego12
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Re: Q: Key Adjustment

Post by flutego12 » Sat Aug 10, 2013 4:22 pm

fluteguy18 wrote:Handsome? Me?! Oh the flattery! :oops:
:mrgreen:
btw, checked out your blog, mr blogger.
it's great! I then proceeded with a comment but in the process of logging into google+ got bumped off.
hence the phantom visitor.

hehehe. thunderlily subliminally thinking of u.
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flutego12
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Re: Q: Key Adjustment

Post by flutego12 » Sat Aug 10, 2013 4:23 pm

:D
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mirwa
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Re: Q: Key Adjustment

Post by mirwa » Sat Aug 10, 2013 7:17 pm

Thunderlily wrote:Now, some folks here regulate by fixing corks around, and that's okay too, whatever works for them, they've probably been doing it for years and like it that way (and I fully respect them for doing so). I'm just writing this up because I know you're going to Red Wing, don't bring me a shitstorm for this.
No shitstorm. I have some good friends who went to redwing.

What you get taught at schools is an established way of doing something, doesnt mean its right or wrong, just established.

The following is IMO.

When one flexes or bends a key to regulate, certain things happen. Example lets say my low D key is too high, if you were to bend the foot of the key down it actually because its on a pivot alters the relationship of the pad to the tone hole, it will infact create a leak, the best key to see this happen is the low Eb, lift the touch lever (flex it) and Eb will start leaking at the front or the back of the pad.

I never lift or regulate by bending keys on an instrument that has pads already fitted, if Im fitting the pads, then its open season and Ill bend them to perfection and then deal with pad to to tone hole relationship afterwards as Im working with a new pad.

But if its an old pad, bending the foot or regulation runs high risks of creating leaks, for me screws or corks on old pads

All of course IMO.

mirwa
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Re: Q: Key Adjustment

Post by mirwa » Sat Aug 10, 2013 7:17 pm

Thunderlily wrote:Now, some folks here regulate by fixing corks around, and that's okay too, whatever works for them, they've probably been doing it for years and like it that way (and I fully respect them for doing so). I'm just writing this up because I know you're going to Red Wing, don't bring me a shitstorm for this.
No shitstorm. I have some good friends who went to redwing.

What you get taught at schools is an established way of doing something, doesnt mean its right or wrong, just established.

The following is IMO.

When one flexes or bends a key to regulate, certain things happen. Example lets say my low D key is too high, if you were to bend the foot of the key down it actually because its on a pivot alters the relationship of the pad to the tone hole, it will infact create a leak, the best key to see this happen is the low Eb, lift the touch lever (flex it) and Eb will start leaking at the front or the back of the pad.

I never lift or regulate by bending keys on an instrument that has pads already fitted, if Im fitting the pads, then its open season and Ill bend them to perfection and then deal with pad to to tone hole relationship afterwards as Im working with a new pad.

But if its an old pad, bending the foot or regulation runs high risks of creating leaks, for me screws or corks on old pads

All of course IMO.

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